Arabs attack Israel 1967

[Von Schadewald]

In 1967 Nasser boasted that he was going to destroy Israel, and King Hussein that on the way to throwing the Israelis in to the sea, that his troops should rape all the women. Instead the Israelis preempted with 200 jets and took out the Arab airforces, took Sinai, the West Bank and the Golan etc.

What would have happened if the Israelis had not preempted, and simply maintained a defensive posture through June 1967? When was the Arab D Day planned for?

How exactly did the Arabs plan to fulfil their dream, and could they have succeeded against the Israeli defences? Were the Arabs competent enough to invade on three fronts simultaneously, remembering that in 1948 they also tried, and with heavy fighting inside Israel, were repulsed.

It is said that Israel had one working atom bomb in 1967.

[South]

Good morning Von Schadewald,

A difficult question on a difficult subject - when - adding the Great Powers presence.

To this day, it's not entirely clear why LBJ wanted the USS Liberty out of the equation.

Besides the USS Liberty, U-2 aircraft from Incirlik, Turkey were monitoring the forces.

I don't know about a specific Egyptian D-Day but the key event dates allow one to justify always keeping the boots on 24/7 and "a round in the chamber".

18 May: Nasser demanded UNEF leave Sinai
22 May: Nasser announced blockade of Strait of Tiran
30 May: Jordan signs military alliance with Egypt
4 June Iraq signs military alliance with Egypt

There were already small combat skirmishes occurring.

5 June: Israel launches its preemptive strike.

I cannot guess the end results if Israel did not launch its preemptive strike; too many variables.

The Arabs did not have the competence to successfully run a joint and unified command. Recall Syria defacto was not in the UAR prior to May 67.

Even if Israel had a nuclear bomb in '67, the US would have injected itself into the fray. The US did not use nuclear ordnance during the Korean War nor during the current Vietnam War. The Suez Canal and nearby oil fields received priority protection. Note that Baku, USSR was nearby and it was a staging area for force projection.

Israel captured all of Sinai except for Port Fued.

I waited a day before replying to this thread. It's still a sensitive subject here in re the real USS Liberty story.

Meanwhile, without discussing it, there are matters in the eastern Med and the overall Middle East still pending resolution - if I may be both blunt and bland.

~ Bob
eastern Virginia, USA

[wm]

The Arab armies were quite pathetic, especially the Syrian Army.
At that time the CIA was certain that Israel could “defend successfully against simultaneous Arab attacks on all fronts . . . or hold on any three fronts while mounting successfully a major offensive on the fourth."

Btw, that Nasser et al. was going to invade isn't proven. It seems there was an invasion planned, which he reluctantly supported, but it was canceled under American/Soviet pressure many days earlier.

[Robert Rojas]

Greetings to both citizen Von Schadewald and the community as a whole. Howdy V.S.! Long time no talk to! Well sir, in reference to your introductory posting of Wednesday - March 20, 2019 - 11:37pm, old yours truly is of the speculative school of thought that, like the State of Israel, the Arab D-Day might have also been also tentatively scheduled for June 05, 1967. So, one must ask the following two questions, what did the Israeli Defense Establishment know AND when did they know it? In historical retrospect, the foundation of the well synchronized and executed Israeli pre-emptive strike of June 05. 1967 must have been based upon impeachable political and military intelligence data about the IMMINENT intentions of Egypt, Jordan and Syria. Fortunately, at least for the State of Israel anyway, their best insurance policy was then (as it is now) ARAB DISUNITY. So, my digressions notwithstanding, with the Arab League on the march on OR soon after June 05, 1967, the Egyptians will make good headway into southern Israel in the vicinity around and out of the Gaza strip with the objective of the metropolitan Jaffa - Tel Aviv area. The Syrians will make poor headway into northern Israel in the vicinity of the Sea of Galilee with the objective of metropolitan Haifa. Despite dogged Israeli resistance, the Jordanians will make moderate headway through the Jezreel Valley on their march to the Mediterranean Sea with the objective of geographically bisecting the State of Israel. With Washington, D.C. watching in abject horror over the imminent collapse of the State of Israel, the Johnson Administration will issue what is tantamount to an ultimatum to Cairo, Amman and Damascus - WITHDRAW IMMEDIATELY OR FACE THE CONSEQUENCES! With the preponderance of American conventional military resources committed elsewhere around the world (N.A.T.O. - South Korea - South Vietnam), Moscow has assured Cairo, Amman and Damascus that American intervention in the Arab League's WAR OF PALESTINIAN LIBERATION is extremely unlikely. Shortly after rejecting Lyndon Johnson's ultimatum, the cities of Cairo, Amman and Damascus were vaporized under the onslaught of American nuclear strikes. A Saudi led oil embargo would ensue. Well, that's my initial two Yankee cents worth on this glimpse into Armageddon - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day over in your corner of the ever fractious Balkans.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob

[T. A. Gardner]

Pretty much the same thing. The Arab armies, with the possible exception of Jordan-- a reluctant participant-- were somewhere between bad and pathetically bad. They weren't going to overrun Israel in any case. So, the Arabs still get a thorough @$$ kicking.

[Robert Rojas]

Greetings to both brother T.A. Gardner and the community as a whole. Howdy T.A.G.! Well sir, in deference to your point OR points-of-view as articulated within your installment of Monday - September 09, 2019 - 4:51pm, old yours truly is far from certain that the collective Arab military effort was little more than an over glorified PAPER TIGER (my words, not yours). The Arabs (especially the Egyptians) were lavishly equipped with a potpourri of Soviet Military Hardware most notably armored fighting vehicles. Now to be sure, it was a cross mixture of Second World War and contemporary Warsaw Pact machinery. It should also be pointed out that the Israeli Defense Force was also a cross mixture of Second World War and contemporary N.A.T.O. machinery. So, I guess we'll have to look at one of those imponderables of war such as the driving motivation of the personnel who operate all of that hardware in the heat and grit of the Sinai and Negev Deserts. It should also be pointed out that Arab military aviation has not been destroyed on the ground and is still very much in play. The Arabs will also hold the initiative when they strike on June 05, 1967. The Israeli's will attempt to fight a mobile battle, BUT given the geographic constraints of the State of Israel in year 1967, the Israeli Army has very limited real estate to trade for time. In addition, the Israeli Army will likely be handicapped with the potential panic of its civilian population. As with France in year 1940, civilians MIGHT clog the internal transportation arteries vital for the movement of material and now mobilizing Israeli Army Reservists. Along a similar train-of-thought, I also suspect that a number of questionable tactical decisions will inevitably be colored with very legitimate concerns about protecting the civilian populace within their respective areas of operation. Nothing appears as it seems. Incidentally, when you described the Arab armies as somewhere between bad and pathetically bad, this could have been an apt assessment of the Army National Guard during the very same time period. It's just some sobering food for thought. Well, that's my latest two Yankee cents worth on this sojourn down the road to Armageddon - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day over in your corner of the Grand Canyon State of Arizona.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob

[jesk]

Egypt in many ways has become a victim of positional defense. Former Wehrmacht general Wilhelm Farmbacher offered the Egyptians defense at bearing points, followed by a blow from the depths. Nasser ignored and this was a mistake, which allowed to defeat the Egyptian army in parts.

https://www.proza.ru/2005/05/27-125

The idea of ​​General Farmbacher about "... a loose defense line consisting of strongholds and intended to weaken the attack in order to prepare a tank counterattack ..." was abandoned. Nasser did not agree to give in even an inch, even if this action was advantageous for purely military reasons. Political considerations outweighed the military advantage - a rebuff to the expected Israeli offensive should have been given right at the border. Therefore, all directions suitable for advancement into the depths of the Sinai were reliably blocked by fortifications, mines, and artillery and rocket batteries fired in advance by the firing positions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Fahrmbacher

He was a recipient of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross. Upon Germany's surrender in 1945, Fahrmbacher was interned in France until 1950. After his release he served as a military advisor in Egypt.
------------------

In the diagram there are 4 divisions attacked from the flanks, where the Egyptians considered the attacks unlikely. An analogue of the Ardennes forests ...



... By the middle of the second day of the war, June 6th, the advanced echelon of the Sinai Egyptian defense ceased to exist - all its fortifications were lost, two divisions (20th and 7th) were completely destroyed, and the third (2nd infantry) was brutally battered - all this was the result of 40 hours of the Israeli offensive.
There were still defense possibilities for the Egyptian army - two untouched second-tier divisions (6th mechanized and 3rd infantry) could be involved, there were powerful tank units - the Shazli group and the 4th armored division.
The Egyptian General Staff was going to continue the resistance, using the Kahir plan developed before the war, and it was necessary to counterattack the enemy with it — precisely by the forces of the second echelon.

It would be hard to say what would have happened if this intention had been fulfilled. Most likely, nothing good — the Egyptian tank units would have to conduct a “oncoming battle” —that they did not know how to do, but what their enemies knew how to do well.
In addition, it was necessary to do this blindfolded, without air reconnaissance, and under continuous bombing - Israeli aircraft in the morning of June 6th already began to act in support of their army.
However, no "oncoming battle" occurred - on June 6, the Egyptian high command over the head of its own General Staff issued an order for a general withdrawal from Sinai.

And this departure, not being prepared in any way, soon went into a stampede.

[Robert Rojas]

Greetings to both citizen Jesk and the community as a whole. Howdy Jesk! Well sir, in respect to your posting of Tuesday - September 10, 2019 - 8:54am, old yours truly is duly impressed that you have historical interests that are clearly beyond the realm of the Eastern Front. Oh, and by the way, I must concur with your observations that the precipitous and inexplicable decision by Field Marshal Mohamed Abdel Hakim Amer to order the wholesale evacuation of the Sinai Peninsula subsequently degenerated into a classic battlefield ROUT with the Israeli Defense Force in hot pursuit of the disorganized and fleeing Egyptian forces. Well, that's my latest two Yankee cents worth on this continuing sojourn down the road to Armageddon - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day over in your corner of White Russia.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob

[jesk]

Probably the 6-day war used in the internal political struggle.

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Абдель_Хаким_Амер

On June 8, 1967, on the third day after the start of the Six Day War, Field Marshal Amer, at the head of the anti-presidential coalition, demanded the resignation of President Nasser, but was defeated and was forced to resign the next day.

On June 11, 1967, Egyptian generals, blocking Nasser's house with six armored vehicles, demanded that Minister of Defense Amer be reinstated as commander in chief, but Nasser did not succumb to threats. However, on June 29, he met with Amer, who demanded that the president release all the generals arrested during the “purges” in the army. Nasser gave his consent. But the liberated generals did not go home, but directly to Amer. On August 26, 1967, Amer intended to capture the General Staff, having previously enlisted the support of four hundred cadets of the landing school. Considering that the troops obeyed and completely trusted him, he intended to dictate his terms to President Nasser.

But the day before the speech, several hundred officers from among the conspirators were arrested. Field Marshal Abdel Hakim Amer was charged with attempting a coup and put under house arrest, and on September 14, 1967, according to the official version, he committed suicide by taking poison - aconitine.

On September 16, 1967, the Al-Ahram newspaper reported: "What happened to Amer cannot cross out his activities in those years when he was a companion, friend and brother of Nasser in the fight."

[jesk]

The fighting in 1973 was also of a dubious nature. On October 6-9, Israel was defeated. Then the unsuccessful attack of the Egyptians followed and Sadat was blamed for this. October 14 is late on the one hand, and early on the other. Medium and unsuccessful option.
Topic starter entirely under Zionist propaganda. For the Egyptians, war is a business. Erroneous military decisions in favor of secret political goals.

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Война_Судного_дня

After several days of waiting, Sadat, wanting to improve the situation of the Syrians, ordered his generals (including Saad El Shazli and Defense Minister Ahmad Ismail Ali) to prepare the offensive. General Saad El Shazli wrote in his memoirs that he opposed this decision and even told Sadat that this decision is a dangerous strategic mistake. According to the general, it was precisely the upholding of this position that led to the fact that he was practically removed from command. The Egyptian offensive began on October 14th. “The offensive of the Egyptians, the most massive since the first advance on the day of Yom Kippur, was completely unsuccessful, it was the first Egyptian slip from the start of the war. Instead of maneuvering to accumulate combat power, it, except for throwing through a wadi, was spent on a frontal attack against the Israeli brigades ready for it. The Egyptians lost about 150-250 tanks that day. ”

For the whole day, on October 9, during a counterattack, Israel lost 80 tanks out of order (143rd division lost 50 tanks, 18th 252nd division lost and 12th 162nd division lost).

«As s result of setbacks and blunders, eighty of Southern Command’s tanks were put out of commision-fifty in 143rd Division (eighteen abandoned), twelve in the 162nd, and the rest in the 252nd.» Soldier in the Sinai: A General’s Account of the Yom Kippur War. Emanuel Sakal. University Press of Kentucky. 2014

After the event, Egyptian senior officers blamed Sadat for the failure, arguing that he had held back the army when an advance was still possible (on 10 October) but had, under pressure from Damascus, pushed it into an offensive when it was too late. The Yom Kippur War: Politics, Diplomacy, Legacy. Asaf Siniver. Oxford University Press. 2013

[Robert Rojas]

Greetings to both citizen Jesk and the community as whole. Howdy Jesk! Well sir, in reference to your installment of Tuesday - September 10, 2019 - 12:27pm, I rather suspect that you might be confusing the SIX DAY WAR of year 1967 with the YOM KIPPUR WAR of year 1973. Incidentally, your commentary of Tuesday - September 10, 2019 - 12:27pm would segway rather nicely with the thread entitled as YOM KIPPUR ALTERNATIVE located within the OTHER SECTION of the forum. The thread's author goes by the nom de plume of Kingfish and the posting date is Sunday - April 28, 2019 - 1:06pm. Now you know. Well, that's my latest two Yankee cents worth on the continuing saga that is the Arab- Israeli conflict - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day over in your corner of White Russia.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob