Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

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Takao
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by Takao » 08 Nov 2019 22:49

OpanaPointer wrote:
08 Nov 2019 22:47
ljadw wrote:
08 Nov 2019 21:47
Why ?
To win US had to invade Japanese territory, Japan did not need to invade US territory to win .
We didn't invade Japanese territory, and we won.
Okinawa was Japanese territory. As were the Japanese Mandates. We did "invade" the Home Islands after the surrender.

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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by OpanaPointer » 08 Nov 2019 22:50

Takao wrote:
08 Nov 2019 22:44
Fallacy.

The move into the Southern Resources Area was entirely possible without PH. The IJN's entire strategy for fighting a Pacific War, since the early 1900's never included such an attack on PH. Only in 1940 did Yamamoto throw the playbook out the window.
This. The One Great All-out Battle was to be found close to the Home Islands, not a few thousand miles away. The plan was to defeat the best effort the USN could present, not a rump fleet after major units had been bled off for the Atlantic.
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by OpanaPointer » 08 Nov 2019 22:50

Takao wrote:
08 Nov 2019 22:49
OpanaPointer wrote:
08 Nov 2019 22:47
ljadw wrote:
08 Nov 2019 21:47
Why ?
To win US had to invade Japanese territory, Japan did not need to invade US territory to win .
We didn't invade Japanese territory, and we won.
Okinawa was Japanese territory. As were the Japanese Mandates. We did "invade" the Home Islands after the surrender.
Quibble noted.
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Takao
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by Takao » 08 Nov 2019 22:55

OpanaPointer wrote:
08 Nov 2019 22:50
Takao wrote:
08 Nov 2019 22:44
Fallacy.

The move into the Southern Resources Area was entirely possible without PH. The IJN's entire strategy for fighting a Pacific War, since the early 1900's never included such an attack on PH. Only in 1940 did Yamamoto throw the playbook out the window.
This. The One Great All-out Battle was to be found close to the Home Islands, not a few thousand miles away. The plan was to defeat the best effort the USN could present, not a rump fleet after major units had been bled off for the Atlantic.
Early on, yes, the battle was to be fought close to the home islands - coal burning ships had a limited radius of action. But, by. 1939, it was to be fought around the Marianas.

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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by OpanaPointer » 08 Nov 2019 23:00

Takao wrote:
08 Nov 2019 22:55
OpanaPointer wrote:
08 Nov 2019 22:50
Takao wrote:
08 Nov 2019 22:44
Fallacy.

The move into the Southern Resources Area was entirely possible without PH. The IJN's entire strategy for fighting a Pacific War, since the early 1900's never included such an attack on PH. Only in 1940 did Yamamoto throw the playbook out the window.
This. The One Great All-out Battle was to be found close to the Home Islands, not a few thousand miles away. The plan was to defeat the best effort the USN could present, not a rump fleet after major units had been bled off for the Atlantic.
Early on, yes, the battle was to be fought close to the home islands - coal burning ships had a limited radius of action. But, by. 1939, it was to be fought around the Marianas.
That just shows the effect of the Mandates.
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Takao
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by Takao » 09 Nov 2019 00:29

More the efficiency of bunker oil over coal as a fuel, it greatly increased range.

Just as their plan for the conquest of the Philippines was on again, off again, on again for the same reason.

The US was worried about secret Japanese bases in the Mandates, but that never really happened until after the war began.

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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by OpanaPointer » 09 Nov 2019 00:55

Takao wrote:
09 Nov 2019 00:29
More the efficiency of bunker oil over coal as a fuel, it greatly increased range.

Just as their plan for the conquest of the Philippines was on again, off again, on again for the same reason.

The US was worried about secret Japanese bases in the Mandates, but that never really happened until after the war began.
IJN ships were converted to oil during WWI IIRC.
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by Takao » 09 Nov 2019 01:58

OpanaPointer wrote:
09 Nov 2019 00:55
Takao wrote:
09 Nov 2019 00:29
More the efficiency of bunker oil over coal as a fuel, it greatly increased range.

Just as their plan for the conquest of the Philippines was on again, off again, on again for the same reason.

The US was worried about secret Japanese bases in the Mandates, but that never really happened until after the war began.
IJN ships were converted to oil during WWI IIRC.
The IJN big ships were all coal with oil sprayed on the coal bed, even the Nagatos, which IIRC, used a mix of oil/coal & oil only boilers. Only much later would the battleships switch to all oil.

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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by OpanaPointer » 09 Nov 2019 02:38

They still hadn't developed underway refueling, so without a series of refueling stations/stops they weren't going all that far.
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Takao
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by Takao » 09 Nov 2019 02:55

OpanaPointer wrote:
09 Nov 2019 02:38
They still hadn't developed underway refueling, so without a series of refueling stations/stops they weren't going all that far.
They had developed and practiced underway refueling for small ships up to light cruisers. But were not known to have developed it for larger vessels. However, the big ships had the range to get there and back, not so much the destroyers and light cruisers.

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RE: Japan Delays Pearl Harbor, Attacks The U.S.S.R. During The High Point Of Barbarossa.

Post by Robert Rojas » 09 Nov 2019 03:19

Greetings to the disparate readership of this thread. Well boys and girls, getting back to brother Cannon Fodder 95's introductory posting of Tuesday - May 15, 2018 - 6:37am, old yours truly was wondering what any of you WOULD-BE Physical Oceanographrers and Meteorologists would think of the likelihood of an UNDETECTED and successful approach to the Hawaiian Archipelago during the Summer OR early Autumn in year 1942 by the Imperial Japanese Navy with the mission of attacking and crippling the United States Navy's Pacific Fleet anchored at the Pearl Harbor Naval Base on the Island of Oahu - assuming of course that the fleet has not redeployed elsewhere since the onset of year 1942. It has always been my "understanding" (for whatever that's worth) that the planners of the original Pearl Harbor Operation slated for December 07, 1941 chose the NORTHERN ROUTE to approach the Hawaiian Archipelago to specifically reduce the chances of detection by the raiding Japanese Task Force. So between November 26, 1941 and December 06, 1941, the original Pearl Harbor raiding Japanese Task Force essentially used what was tantamount to bad weather in the NORTHERN climes of the Pacific Ocean to ostensibly mask its presence and movement before arriving at its launch point before the Island of Oahu on December 06, 1941. NOW, assuming that the Japanese Navy still has in mind to mount an overwhelming attack on the United States Navy's Pacific Fleet STILL theoretically at anchor in Pearl Harbor during the course of the Summer OR early Autumn of year 1942, would the Japanese planners of this latter day raid on Pearl Harbor still consider using the NORTHERN ROUTE during the time of year where the weather in the NORTHERN climes of the Pacific Ocean might, at least in theory anyway, not be as inclement as during the months of late autumn and winter. Would the risk of detection be exasperated by errant commercial shipping, a roving submariner patrol OR more active and far ranging aerial reconnaissance patrols by B-17 Flying Fortresses emanating out of the Island of Oahu due to better weather conditions for extended aerial missions? Incidentally, for purposes of disclaimer, brother Cannon Fodder 95 did NOT specifically indicate what Japan's Pacific target MIGHT or MIGHT NOT BE during the Summer or early Autumn of year 1942. Well, that's my latest two Yankee cents worth on this now thoroughly meandering topic of interest - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid every last one of you an especially copacetic day no matter where you just might happen to find yourselves on Terra Firma.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by ljadw » 09 Nov 2019 07:22

OpanaPointer wrote:
08 Nov 2019 22:47
ljadw wrote:
08 Nov 2019 21:47
Why ?
To win US had to invade Japanese territory, Japan did not need to invade US territory to win .
We didn't invade Japanese territory, and we won.
Okinawa ?

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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by OpanaPointer » 09 Nov 2019 13:16

ljadw wrote:
09 Nov 2019 07:22
OpanaPointer wrote:
08 Nov 2019 22:47
ljadw wrote:
08 Nov 2019 21:47
Why ?
To win US had to invade Japanese territory, Japan did not need to invade US territory to win .
We didn't invade Japanese territory, and we won.
Okinawa ?
Okay, just barely. But the orders Gen. Anami gave to all all Allied POWs, men, women, and children, when the first Allied boot touched the Home Islands, were executed.
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Takao
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by Takao » 09 Nov 2019 13:35

ljadw wrote:
08 Nov 2019 21:47
Why ?
To win US had to invade Japanese territory, Japan did not need to invade US territory to win .
Also, as has been discussed many times, the US didn't need to invade to win. They could have blockaded Japan, and starved them into surrender - but that would have drug the war out into 1947. They could have continued the bombing campaign, which would have focused on Japan's transportation net & agricultural areas - which, along with the blockade, would have speeded up the starvation process, but not by that much.

Worth noting that all variations of War Plan Orange did not call for an invasion but ended with a blockade of the Japanese Home Islands. An invasion was an anathema to the US war planners of the pre-war era.

Only for MacArthur which it was to be his crowning glory.

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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by OpanaPointer » 09 Nov 2019 14:16

And Plan Dog replaced Orange, reflecting the new realities of a two ocean war. http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/misc/dog.html
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