A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
User avatar
Destroyer500
Member
Posts: 218
Joined: 16 Oct 2018 10:14
Location: Athens

Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Destroyer500 » 22 Sep 2022 15:34

Takao wrote:
22 Sep 2022 01:06
Well, the complete round for the 5.5cm/L77 was 5.3 kilos...times 4.
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_55_Gerat58.php
https://www.warships.com.cn/navweaps/WN ... erat58.htm This one sais its 5.3 killos too.That is somewhat great because it would be more lethal on any kind of penetration but the clip idea is totally out of the question,only some sort of feed system could work.

Then again is it really 5.3 kilos ? The AZP S-60s round,the gun that is derived from the Gerat design,doesnt weigh that much.If the Soviets decided to reduce the weight thats another story but i dont know if that the case.Even the 5cm L/60s shell weighs 2.05 kilos.

User avatar
Takao
Member
Posts: 3653
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 19:27
Location: Reading, Pa

Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Takao » 22 Sep 2022 21:05

Yes, really over 5 kilos.

Both Sweden & Russia had naval 57mm automatic shells with complete round weights over 6 kilos in the 1950s.

User avatar
Destroyer500
Member
Posts: 218
Joined: 16 Oct 2018 10:14
Location: Athens

Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Destroyer500 » 23 Sep 2022 11:54

Takao wrote:
22 Sep 2022 21:05
Yes, really over 5 kilos.

Both Sweden & Russia had naval 57mm automatic shells with complete round weights over 6 kilos in the 1950s.
Are you sure about the weight ? http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNSwede ... _mk123.php http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNFR_57-60_m1951.php

User avatar
Takao
Member
Posts: 3653
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 19:27
Location: Reading, Pa

Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Takao » 23 Sep 2022 13:35

Destroyer500 wrote:
23 Sep 2022 11:54
Takao wrote:
22 Sep 2022 21:05
Yes, really over 5 kilos.

Both Sweden & Russia had naval 57mm automatic shells with complete round weights over 6 kilos in the 1950s.
Are you sure about the weight ? http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNSwede ... _mk123.php http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNFR_57-60_m1951.php
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNSwede ... _mk123.php
You did notice I said 1950's didn't you? This gun is from the 1960's. But, since you mentioned it...

Weight of Complete RoundPFHE: 13.4 lbs. (6.1 kg)
HCER: 14.3 lbs. (6.5 kg)
HE: 13.4 lbs. (6.1 kg)
57 3P 1a 2a: 13.4 lbs. (6.1 kg)
Mark 332: HE 4-Bolt Guided (HE-4G) projectile: about 14.3 lbs. (6.5 kg) 3a

Wow!! All over 6 kilos.


http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNFR_57-60_m1951.php
Weight of Complete Round. 13.78 - 14.07 lbs. (6.25 - 6.38 kg)

Looks to be over 6 kilos...You apparently disagree...Were you only looking at projectile weight?

User avatar
Destroyer500
Member
Posts: 218
Joined: 16 Oct 2018 10:14
Location: Athens

Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Destroyer500 » 24 Sep 2022 22:32

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNSwede ... _mk123.php
You did notice I said 1950's didn't you? This gun is from the 1960's. But, since you mentioned it...

Weight of Complete RoundPFHE: 13.4 lbs. (6.1 kg)
HCER: 14.3 lbs. (6.5 kg)
HE: 13.4 lbs. (6.1 kg)
57 3P 1a 2a: 13.4 lbs. (6.1 kg)
Mark 332: HE 4-Bolt Guided (HE-4G) projectile: about 14.3 lbs. (6.5 kg) 3a

Wow!! All over 6 kilos.


http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNFR_57-60_m1951.php
Weight of Complete Round. 13.78 - 14.07 lbs. (6.25 - 6.38 kg)

Looks to be over 6 kilos...You apparently disagree...Were you only looking at projectile weight?
I feel like such an idiot.Yes you are absolutely right its a lot heavier than i though because i was only looking at projectile weight.I mean its clearly stated Weight of complete round but i somehow completely missed it.

ThatZenoGuy
Member
Posts: 351
Joined: 20 Jan 2019 10:14
Location: Australia

Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 29 Sep 2022 07:42

Yeah 50mm+ rounds are a lot heavier than you think, square-cube law can be pretty crazy.

40mm bofors shell weight= 2.1 kilograms.

55mm would be some 2.5 times larger than 40mm by volume, giving a weight of around 5-6 kilograms.

User avatar
Destroyer500
Member
Posts: 218
Joined: 16 Oct 2018 10:14
Location: Athens

Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Destroyer500 » 30 Sep 2022 19:54

ThatZenoGuy wrote:
29 Sep 2022 07:42
Yeah 50mm+ rounds are a lot heavier than you think, square-cube law can be pretty crazy.

40mm bofors shell weight= 2.1 kilograms.

55mm would be some 2.5 times larger than 40mm by volume, giving a weight of around 5-6 kilograms.
When i read how much of a performance increase the new Panther tank of Germany had while only going from 120 to 130mm in gun size i was baffled.It was just 10mms but due to the size the increase in strength and weight went a lot up.It turns out that the whole thing doesnt work in a linear maner,or at least in the linear way i was thinking of it.

ThatZenoGuy
Member
Posts: 351
Joined: 20 Jan 2019 10:14
Location: Australia

Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 01 Oct 2022 02:28

Destroyer500 wrote:
30 Sep 2022 19:54
ThatZenoGuy wrote:
29 Sep 2022 07:42
Yeah 50mm+ rounds are a lot heavier than you think, square-cube law can be pretty crazy.

40mm bofors shell weight= 2.1 kilograms.

55mm would be some 2.5 times larger than 40mm by volume, giving a weight of around 5-6 kilograms.
When i read how much of a performance increase the new Panther tank of Germany had while only going from 120 to 130mm in gun size i was baffled.It was just 10mms but due to the size the increase in strength and weight went a lot up.It turns out that the whole thing doesnt work in a linear maner,or at least in the linear way i was thinking of it.
Yup, while the caliber only went up by 10mm, the cartridge is massively longer to support a longer dart and more powder.

User avatar
Takao
Member
Posts: 3653
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 19:27
Location: Reading, Pa

Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Takao » 02 Oct 2022 01:04

Double Post.
Last edited by Takao on 02 Oct 2022 18:35, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Takao
Member
Posts: 3653
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 19:27
Location: Reading, Pa

Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Takao » 02 Oct 2022 01:15

Destroyer500 wrote:
30 Sep 2022 19:54
ThatZenoGuy wrote:
29 Sep 2022 07:42
Yeah 50mm+ rounds are a lot heavier than you think, square-cube law can be pretty crazy.

40mm bofors shell weight= 2.1 kilograms.

55mm would be some 2.5 times larger than 40mm by volume, giving a weight of around 5-6 kilograms.
When i read how much of a performance increase the new Panther tank of Germany had while only going from 120 to 130mm in gun size i was baffled.It was just 10mms but due to the size the increase in strength and weight went a lot up.It turns out that the whole thing doesnt work in a linear maner,or at least in the linear way i was thinking of it.
That is because your thinking is all wrong. You see, it is neither 120mm or 130mm...But 140mm.

The 120mm is a "necked down" version of the original German 140mm. They continued this with the 130mm, as it is "necked down" from 140mm. The difference is that the length of the 130mm complete round is much greater(allowing 50% to 75% more propellant - visual guess).

You can see here, that the diameter of the propellant casing is the same for the 130mm & 120mm
Image
The length difference is also readily apparent.

Return to “What if”