Operation Fortitude fails.

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Carl Schwamberger
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Re: Operation Fortitude fails.

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 17 Jan 2024 23:03

Aida1 wrote:
17 Jan 2024 20:35

Obviously it works as once germans are fixed in Normandy, there is not much they can do when Dragoon happens early enough to move on their rear.

For "earlier" I was thinking of Executing Op ANVIL in April or May as COSSAC originally scheduled it. But, yes, on the game boards pulling off even a weak invasion of souther France in June or July is helpful. OTL Ike left enough amphibious fleet in the Mediterranean March-July for Alexander to make some sort of division size operation. Using Rangers, Airborne, and whatever infantry regiments can be added its possible to gamble on seizing a port as a coup de main. Theres some risk, but if the Germans are to squash it they have to send reinforcements to the 19th Army.

Richard Anderson
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Re: Operation Fortitude fails.

Post by Richard Anderson » 18 Jan 2024 00:53

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
17 Jan 2024 20:19
Aida1 wrote:
17 Jan 2024 19:39

Executing Dragoon quicker than historically always makes sense to outmaneuver german defenses in northern France.Fix the enemy and then outmaneuver through a weak spot is the smart method.
It works on the game board, for whatever value that might have.... Even German players that can see what the Allied player is up to have trouble countering this.
You do realize the sock puppet is doing an end around a locked thread by necromancing this thread?
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

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thaddeus_c
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Re: Operation Fortitude fails.

Post by thaddeus_c » 11 Feb 2024 17:10

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
17 Jan 2024 23:03
For "earlier" I was thinking of Executing Op ANVIL in April or May as COSSAC originally scheduled it. But, yes, on the game boards pulling off even a weak invasion of souther France in June or July is helpful. OTL Ike left enough amphibious fleet in the Mediterranean March-July for Alexander to make some sort of division size operation. Using Rangers, Airborne, and whatever infantry regiments can be added its possible to gamble on seizing a port as a coup de main. Theres some risk, but if the Germans are to squash it they have to send reinforcements to the 19th Army.
how do you see the historical Anzio landings affecting operations and how do you think a "failed" Anzio would affect operations? (meaning overall not just a speculative earlier Anvil/Dragoon)

Carl Schwamberger
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Re: Operation Fortitude fails.

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 12 Feb 2024 15:45

Was asked that question years ago. Specifically about substituting a earlier ANVIL operation for the SHINGLE Op. That led to studying both the historical plan for ANVIL and the 'January' proposal on the game boards. Both presented the German player with some interesting dilemmas. As a game it did not prove much, at least as far as it went then. The question on the discussion board was what decision Hitler would take, which could make a huge difference.

ljadw
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Re: Operation Fortitude fails.

Post by ljadw » 12 Feb 2024 16:08

The importance of a failure of Fortitude is very much exaggerated ,as the news that the Allies would not land at the Pas de Calais would not make it possible for the Germans to strip the Pas de Calais from all forces :if the Pas de Calais was stripped ,the Allies would attack there .
The Allies would be able to land everywhere where there were no Germans .
If you are in a defending position , you must defend everything . That was the situation of France after September 1939 and of Germany even after D Day .

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Aida1
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Re: Operation Fortitude fails.

Post by Aida1 » 12 Feb 2024 21:01

ljadw wrote:
12 Feb 2024 16:08
The importance of a failure of Fortitude is very much exaggerated ,as the news that the Allies would not land at the Pas de Calais would not make it possible for the Germans to strip the Pas de Calais from all forces :if the Pas de Calais was stripped ,the Allies would attack there .
The Allies would be able to land everywhere where there were no Germans .
If you are in a defending position , you must defend everything . That was the situation of France after September 1939 and of Germany even after D Day .
Simplistic as usual. The germans could take away more forces including all mobile divisions from the Pas de calais which helps.

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