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Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
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Oleg Grigoryev
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#1

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 03 Nov 2002, 02:10

If Germany filled obligated to proclaimed war on US when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, how come Japan did not proclaimed war on England and France after September 1st of 1939. While no exactly my area of expertise – would not united Japan-German navy (or Japan-German-Italina navy) match capabilities of Grand Fleet –thus making Sea Lion actually possible?

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Sam H.
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#2

Post by Sam H. » 03 Nov 2002, 03:27

Hitler was a fool for declaring war on the US after Pearl Harbor.

Japan was not yet ready for war with the west in 1939. And, perhaps more importantly, it had not yet sufficiently ostercized itself from the US. The US trade embargo did not truely hit Japan until July 1941.

Even if Japan had declared war on Britian and Germany, it was in no position to send a fleet around the globe to aid the Germans in Sea Lion. They did not have the capability of projecting force that far and doing so would have left itself wide open to attack from the US Pacific Fleet.


Ron Birch
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#3

Post by Ron Birch » 12 Nov 2002, 14:01

Oleg that's a damn good question. It seems to me that Japan knows it would engage the English sooner or later but apparently each had a different agenda's on how to accomplish thier goals. But I would think they could match the Grand Fleet and wouldn't they have the edge in carriers?

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Andy H
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#4

Post by Andy H » 12 Nov 2002, 20:03

In a hypothetical encounter between the whole Japanesse Fleet and the whole of the Royal Navy, then Japan would lose, and yes they had more/better acrriers but numbers would avail.

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Sam H.
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#5

Post by Sam H. » 12 Nov 2002, 20:27

In 1940, I just don't see the Royal Navy slugging it out with Japan toe to toe. The Japanese Carriers would carry the day. The Royal Navy air arm would be decimated by the zeros and the Kate and Val bombers for Japan would destroy the RN. (I assume both Kate's and Val's would be available, not sure when they actually joined the fleet).

If it came down to a gun battle, I'd favor the RN until the Yamato's joined the fleet.

However, the post asked if Japan could, in essence, support sea-lion.

No way. Japan was not capable of deploying its entire battle fleet to the Atlantic Ocean.

Caldric
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#6

Post by Caldric » 14 Nov 2002, 10:09

Interesting question, I think it would have been the breaking point however between Japan and the USA. It is very well possible that the US would declare war on Japan, it would be a major mistake not to at the point of an invasion of the UK. However in the narrow English Channel I think the Royal Navy would have the upper hand, they would have fought to the last John Boat to stop an invasion of Jolly O' England.

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#7

Post by valadezaj » 14 Nov 2002, 21:04

Ron Birch is right about each country having it's own agenda. A classic example is that Germany and Italy were close friends but Italy stayed neutral until it thought the war was almost over. If one takes a closer look at the Axis and Allied alliances one sees that while the allied countries cooperated with each other closely, the axis often did things on their own and kept trying to pursue different agandas. For example Mussolini attacked Greece and forced Hitler to fight in the balkans when Hitler wanted those countries to stay neutral. Now let's go back to your original question, why Japan didn't declare war on England at the same time Germany did. There were several factors involved.

1. Japan was at war with China and her resources were being severely drained.
2. A larger war was not in Japanese interests (for the time being). Japan wanted to consolidate China and hoped to reach certain economic agreements with the US. Attacking England would not help Japan in that regard.
3. Japanese-German relations were in a "cool" period at the time over Hitler having a pact with Russia.
4. A year later in 1940 the situation was different. England had been greatly weakened and Germany had emerged as the strongest power in Europe. At the same time negotions with the US over economic problems started to reach deadlock. This lead to improvement in Japanse-German relations and Japan finally joined the axis powers in the fall of 1940.
5. Up to the last few weeks Japan wasn't sure if she should go to war. The stiffening stance of the US combined with an oil embargo finally convinced the Japanese not to wait for the consolidation of China and immediately strike south. The Japanese goal then shifted to seizing islands in the Pacific for resources and to defeat the US and England.

As you can see Japan didn't declare because situation was different from Germany at the time and she had her own agenda as to how her problems would be solved.

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Andy
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#8

Post by Andy » 15 Nov 2002, 04:43

The Royal Navy would defeat the Japanese Navy.

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