The Germans increase Panzer production in the Summer of 1940

Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
User avatar
BDV
Member
Posts: 3704
Joined: 10 Apr 2009 16:11

Re: Panzer production in the Summer of 1940

Post by BDV » 23 Feb 2011 00:16

I would only add that the l'Aryanisation of French economy also necessarily hurt the output Nazi Germany could tap into, both directly or indirectly.
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

nebelwerferXXX
Member
Posts: 1256
Joined: 31 Jul 2010 06:39
Location: Philippines

The Germans increase Panzer production in the Summer of

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 30 Apr 2011 05:10

801st post:
nebelwerferXXX wrote:For the Admiral Scheer, Deutschland, Admiral Hipper, Blucher, Seydlitz, Lutzow, Konigsberg, Karlsruhe, Koln, Leipzig and Nurnberg, have a combined total of 699.3-million RM for the 11 ships. Using the money and invest it to another set of land-based weapons can produced the following, as a OKW Standing General Reserve.

---5,000 Panzer Mark IV tanks
---500 Panzer Mark III tanks
---1,000 SP 75-mm PAK 40 (ex-Czech 38 tank)
---500 SP 75-mm PAK 40 (ex-French Renault tank)
---500 SP 75-mm PAK 40 (ex-French Hotchkiss tank)
---75 heavy howitzers
---278,400 rifles
Enough to fully equipped 28 Panzer divisions.
Last edited by nebelwerferXXX on 30 Apr 2011 08:56, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Tim Smith
Member
Posts: 6177
Joined: 19 Aug 2002 12:15
Location: UK

Re: The Germans increase Panzer production in the Summer of

Post by Tim Smith » 30 Apr 2011 07:54

Nebelwerfer:

Yet another ill-thought out list from you.

Deutschland, Admiral Scheer, Konigsberg, Karlsruhe, Koln and Leipzig were all purchased and laid down before 1933 by the Weimar Republic - not the Third Reich. So there's nothing Hitler can do to save money from those ships and redirect it to tank and gun production - they are already bought and paid for, not even scrapping them saves much money - scrap value is only a tiny fraction of purchase price for warships.

Especially since the original post is about changing Panzer production priorities in 1940 - seven years after the Nazis come to power - your post is off topic and irrelevant.

nebelwerferXXX
Member
Posts: 1256
Joined: 31 Jul 2010 06:39
Location: Philippines

Sorry Sir!

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 30 Apr 2011 08:43

Tim Smith wrote:Nebelwerfer:

Yet another ill-thought out list from you.

Deutschland, Admiral Scheer, Konigsberg, Karlsruhe, Koln and Leipzig were all purchased and laid down before 1933 by the Weimar Republic - not the Third Reich. So there's nothing Hitler can do to save money from those ships and redirect it to tank and gun production - they are already bought and paid for, not even scrapping them saves much money - scrap value is only a tiny fraction of purchase price for warships.

Especially since the original post is about changing Panzer production priorities in 1940 - seven years after the Nazis come to power - your post is off topic and irrelevant.
802nd Post:

Sorry Sir! Hitler instead should have sold the 6 ships after coming to power in 1933 for instance to Italy, to save money to construct additional tank and oil factories. A tank factory cost 50-million RM, while an oil factory cost 200-million RM.

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 30 Apr 2006 23:31
Location: Belfast

Re: The Germans increase Panzer production in the Summer of

Post by phylo_roadking » 30 Apr 2011 10:42

question is - did the oil process actually work in "factory" scale as early as 1933? As for tanks, just look at what the Germans were just even thinking of building as of then....

Whereas the Germans had considerable - if mothballed for a decade or more - experience at building naval vessels ;) And don't disregard the KM's political value ;) After all, it was regarding her naval buildup that Hitler first faced up to the victorious powers of WWI and won - in the shape of the Anglo German Naval Agreement....a real booster for Hitler's domestic reputation as the man who would overturn Versailles...
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

nebelwerferXXX
Member
Posts: 1256
Joined: 31 Jul 2010 06:39
Location: Philippines

French tank factories

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 30 Apr 2011 11:54

BDV wrote:.
Well, as of July 1st 1940, Germans also had under their control the French tank production facilities, which were rated at ave. 250 light tanks (R-40s and H-39s), and ave. 100 medium and heavies (Char-D2, Somua and Char-B1bis) per month. Also the Panhard works were planned to deliver as many as 75 of their excellent Panhard 178 a month. So the capacity was there.
In 12 months, the French factories should have manufactured:
---3,000 light tanks (R-40 & H-39)
---1,200 medium & heavy tanks (Char & Somua)
---900 armored cars (Panhard 178)
And ready for used in the West (training & occupation/garrison duties) & the East (anti-partisan operations).

User avatar
Tim Smith
Member
Posts: 6177
Joined: 19 Aug 2002 12:15
Location: UK

Re: Sorry Sir!

Post by Tim Smith » 30 Apr 2011 14:20

nebelwerferXXX wrote: 802nd Post:

Sorry Sir! Hitler instead should have sold the 6 ships after coming to power in 1933 for instance to Italy, to save money to construct additional tank and oil factories. A tank factory cost 50-million RM, while an oil factory cost 200-million RM.
Italy won't want the German ships - as a major sea power, she prefers to build her own.

The one nation I can think of that would want to buy the German ships is the USSR. Unfortunately, she's a future enemy....which means the ships would be used against Germany during the war.

User avatar
LWD
Member
Posts: 8618
Joined: 21 Sep 2005 21:46
Location: Michigan

Re: French tank factories

Post by LWD » 30 Apr 2011 17:12

nebelwerferXXX wrote: ... In 12 months, the French factories should have manufactured:
---3,000 light tanks (R-40 & H-39)
---1,200 medium & heavy tanks (Char & Somua)
---900 armored cars (Panhard 178)
Or not? It depends a lot on what 12 months you are talking about. There was this little matter of an invasion of France in And ready for used in the West (training & occupation/garrison duties) & the East (anti-partisan operations).

nebelwerferXXX
Member
Posts: 1256
Joined: 31 Jul 2010 06:39
Location: Philippines

Re: French tank factories

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 30 Apr 2011 23:01

LWD wrote:
nebelwerferXXX wrote: ... In 12 months, the French factories should have manufactured:
---3,000 light tanks (R-40 & H-39)
---1,200 medium & heavy tanks (Char & Somua)
---900 armored cars (Panhard 178)
Or not? It depends a lot on what 12 months you are talking about. There was this little matter of an invasion of France in And ready for used in the West (training & occupation/garrison duties) & the East (anti-partisan operations).
In 12 months means it's from July 1940 to June 1941. France has fallen in June of 1940, So, by June 1941, 12 months have past already, so the French vehicles (of 3,000 light tanks, 1,200 medium & heavy tanks, & 900 armored cars) would just be ready in time for Barbarossa & the rest would stay in France & the Low countries for occupation & garrison duties. That's what I'm talking about...

User avatar
LWD
Member
Posts: 8618
Joined: 21 Sep 2005 21:46
Location: Michigan

Re: The Germans increase Panzer production in the Summer of

Post by LWD » 02 May 2011 15:21

Expecting the French production to be anywhere near full production even as early as June of 41 is a bit optomistic. You are ignoringa huge wealth of logistical problems. Not to mention since Vichy France is nominally neutral supplying the Germans with weapons will be a bit problematic.

User avatar
mescal
Member
Posts: 1415
Joined: 30 Mar 2008 14:46
Location: France, EUR

Re: The Germans increase Panzer production in the Summer of

Post by mescal » 02 May 2011 16:33

The problem is that the Occupation implied a huge economic cost for the French economy (IIRC, French GDP in 1944 was around 33% of what it was in 1939).
Not only were many French factories cut from their foreign sources of raw materials by the British blockade, but the German occupation forces looted the stockpiles - for use in Germany (and one ton of iron ore can be processed either in Germany or in France, but it will never make you two tons of iron ore to process).
And finally, what was perhaps the most overlooked problem was the plunder of rolling stock, which separated factories from their raw material providers even though these were not abroad.
Olivier

User avatar
LWD
Member
Posts: 8618
Joined: 21 Sep 2005 21:46
Location: Michigan

Re: The Germans increase Panzer production in the Summer of

Post by LWD » 02 May 2011 17:17

I would also think that some of the French factories would be in the German occupation zone in which case many (most?) of the workers wouldn't be easy to find having fled ahead of the German forces, become part of the army, or otherwise dispursed.

nebelwerferXXX
Member
Posts: 1256
Joined: 31 Jul 2010 06:39
Location: Philippines

3 ships for 10-million barrels of oil

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 04 May 2011 06:05

Tim Smith wrote:As far as fuel goes, maybe Germany could have bought more fuel from Russia before Barbarossa. Personally I'd seriously consider selling the new battleship Bismarck, the cruiser Prinz Eugen, and the unfinished aircraft carrier Graf Zeppelin to the USSR in late 1940, in return for 10 million barrels of oil.

This is equivalent to Germany's entire oil production in 1940!
Selling the 42,000-ton Bismarck, the 18,000-ton Prinz Eugen & the 30,000-ton Graf Zeppelin to the USSR, and that's a good idea, because having 10-million barrels of oil (equivalent to 2-billion liters) was a good investment in preparation for Barbarossa. That one should have happened instead...

User avatar
LWD
Member
Posts: 8618
Joined: 21 Sep 2005 21:46
Location: Michigan

Re: The Germans increase Panzer production in the Summer of

Post by LWD » 04 May 2011 13:22

Who would buy them? and for what?

JonS
Member
Posts: 3935
Joined: 23 Jul 2004 01:39
Location: New Zealand

Re: The Germans increase Panzer production in the Summer of

Post by JonS » 04 May 2011 22:58

LWD wrote:Who would buy them? and for what?
Oh you silly thing.

The USSR would buy them of course, for 10 M barrels of oil.

Or perhaps you meant 'why' would they buy them? Well, that's obvious too: PFM.

Return to “What if”