How would have the war gone without the US?
-
Lord Gort
- Member
- Posts: 2014
- Joined: 07 Apr 2002, 15:44
- Location: United Kingdom: The Land of Hope and Glory
How would have the war gone without the US?
If the United States had not intervened MILITARILY, but continued the massive aid to the UK and the USSR what would have happened?
Well from a Western perspective there would have never have been a second front, as Britain would never have the Manpower to invade Europe by itself.
With continued aid the British Isles would have become a formidable fortress that would stay free from German rule but isolated.
The war between Russia & the Axis may have ended in a stalemate a neither side had the killer punch th effectivly knock the other out.
The one great ? would have been the progree made by either side in the field of Atomic bombs. First to invent, wins the war-that simple.
Hi Ho Silver Away
With continued aid the British Isles would have become a formidable fortress that would stay free from German rule but isolated.
The war between Russia & the Axis may have ended in a stalemate a neither side had the killer punch th effectivly knock the other out.
The one great ? would have been the progree made by either side in the field of Atomic bombs. First to invent, wins the war-that simple.
Hi Ho Silver Away
My guess would be that Soviets would have eventually won Germans. It would have been far greater challenge to their resources and it would last longer but at the end they would win.
How things would go after that is difficult... Soviets would gain most of Europe which would be good for them and German technology would also end up in their hands. However losses would be incredible.
If they would manage to survive from those losses I would find it very likely that Cold war would have ended completely differently leaving US where Russia is today.
How things would go after that is difficult... Soviets would gain most of Europe which would be good for them and German technology would also end up in their hands. However losses would be incredible.
If they would manage to survive from those losses I would find it very likely that Cold war would have ended completely differently leaving US where Russia is today.
Hmm. I disagree.Tiwaz wrote:My guess would be that Soviets would have eventually won Germans. It would have been far greater challenge to their resources and it would last longer but at the end they would win.
How things would go after that is difficult... Soviets would gain most of Europe which would be good for them and German technology would also end up in their hands. However losses would be incredible.
If they would manage to survive from those losses I would find it very likely that Cold war would have ended completely differently leaving US where Russia is today.
I think that Rommel and Montgomery would have continued to "duke it" out in Africa until Panthers and King Tigers arrived. Rommel would have utilized these tanks to gain their ultimate performance. In my humble opinion, that would have spelled the end of Allied presence in Africa.
After that, the coastline would be fortified by Italians and the ideas of a campaign against Malta and Girbaltar[spelling, I know] would probably be planned out.
Rommel would then have continued into Southern Russia with a pre-planned and pre-coordinated offensive that would unite DAK and Armee Group South and drive hard into Russia's flank; cutting off supplies from frontline units and leaving them vulnerable to attack from Armee Group South. This offensive would have most likely succeeded to some extent. It would have forced Russia's Southern Army to a retreat into a more "central" position. The defeat of the Russian army in question [around October 44'] would be a considerable victory for the Germans but the reserves consisting of the next generation of Russian tanks would have slowed the offensive down to a halt before complete annihilation of the Russian Army in question.
Hitler would try to persuade another "spur of the moment" offensive to catch the Russians off gaurd but it would have failed. Instead, Rommel decides to "exploit the bruise" and advance North for the defense of Armee group Central.
The overall offensive would have slowed down and setback the Russians very much so.
Wonder weapons such as the V's and Jet airplanes would take priority once again. Jet aircraft would be produced throughout the rest of 44' and all throughout 45' onto 46'. The Russian propeller planes would serve little purpose. Germans would gain air superiority and Stalin tanks would be taken out in record numbers from the skies from Jet fighter/bombers with wire-guided air-to-land rockets.
The Sturmgewehr44 would replace k98's completely in the infantry squad and infantry warfare would change directions in the German favor. With the advent and production of night vision all armored attacks would be executed at night and Russian tanks would become scrap heaps.
In 46' the next generation of German tanks would be produced with L100 88mm/100mm/128mm guns and layered armor. With all these anti-tank innovations no major offensive would have to be launched. They didn't need to be. All the tons of supplies spent on mass producing older Soviet tanks would go to waste just by slowly advancing in an Easterly direction.
The tide would change due to these innovations and Stalin would find himself in a similar situation as 4 years before. He'd throw every last reserve in to try to alter the face of the war, but with superior German armor, superior German infantry weapons, and long range fighter/bombers it would fail. He would retreat to Cuba and the Soviets would unconditionally surrender to the Germans.
Rommel's Field Staff would jokingly nickname him the "Slavic Fox".
Hermann Göring would've died from a crack overdose.
Himmler would've gone insane trying to get the SS uniforms to have rainbow stripes on them. He would've been assassignated by high ranking officials.
Britain would be nuked...the end.
Last edited by Rob S. on 11 Apr 2002, 21:46, edited 1 time in total.
-
Gwynn Compton
- Member
- Posts: 2840
- Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 23:46
- Location: United Kingdom
Simply said, without American aid, the Soviet and British war efforts would be ruined. Neither could have survived without American aid, the British for foodstuffs and other various products, especially tanks. The Soviet effort would collapse without the thousands of tons of American grain, the millions of furlined boats donated by America, and the some 400,000 trucks which the Red Army would come to depend on for its movement.
Rommel would have devastated the British in North Africa without too much effort.
Rommel would have devastated the British in North Africa without too much effort.
-
Lord Gort
- Member
- Posts: 2014
- Joined: 07 Apr 2002, 15:44
- Location: United Kingdom: The Land of Hope and Glory
This is all good stuff, I was just wondering, how would of the air campaign gone, after all Great Britains aircraft led the world at the beggining fo the war and she had huge advances in Radar.
Just thinking here, that if the Americans had not joined but still given 50 ships then Britain would have remained totally free and with the an empire comprising of a 1/5th of the worlds population is not possible that Britain could have led an assault on Europe? If not in 44 what about in 46-47. Add to that Germanies isolation and that Americas economy would collpase without the vast orders coming form the British empire, could not have the British have won eventually?
Just thinking here, that if the Americans had not joined but still given 50 ships then Britain would have remained totally free and with the an empire comprising of a 1/5th of the worlds population is not possible that Britain could have led an assault on Europe? If not in 44 what about in 46-47. Add to that Germanies isolation and that Americas economy would collpase without the vast orders coming form the British empire, could not have the British have won eventually?
Without succesful american invasion of Normandy would be no reason for Romania to change sides in August 1944. This simple fact has many implications:
- enough petrol for thirsty Tigers and jets; superior mobility for troops and logistics
- realistic chances to keep the pre-Barbarossa border, defending Hungary, Romania, Poland. It is known that Hitler was no longer interested in winning the war after he realized that he cannot defend Hungaria. As an Austrian he had many dreams of Austro-Hungarian empire legacy. He was a suporter of hungarian and romanian forces, because he thought that this will prove his theory - south-eastern european nations were willing and capable to fight against communism. And he got enough confirmations for his theory: a romanian army had the advancing record from Army Group South, more than 800 km in two months (june-august '42).
At the same time it's difficult to estimate the end result. Probably after the advent of AB a different Cold War could have begun with 3 super powers: USA, Germany (with european satellite states:)), SU. Imagine a space race between those three!
- enough petrol for thirsty Tigers and jets; superior mobility for troops and logistics
- realistic chances to keep the pre-Barbarossa border, defending Hungary, Romania, Poland. It is known that Hitler was no longer interested in winning the war after he realized that he cannot defend Hungaria. As an Austrian he had many dreams of Austro-Hungarian empire legacy. He was a suporter of hungarian and romanian forces, because he thought that this will prove his theory - south-eastern european nations were willing and capable to fight against communism. And he got enough confirmations for his theory: a romanian army had the advancing record from Army Group South, more than 800 km in two months (june-august '42).
At the same time it's difficult to estimate the end result. Probably after the advent of AB a different Cold War could have begun with 3 super powers: USA, Germany (with european satellite states:)), SU. Imagine a space race between those three!
Hi All:
I think there would have been a long stalement in Russia, but Germany eventually would have had the bomb, long before the SU and probably before the US. Since the US is not at war, it does not mobilize fully for it, hence all the resources that went into the AB making would have been severely curtailed (as with all other resources).
In N. Africa, I think Rommel would have won the war effort there, but I doubt they would have marched into Central and Southern Africa. That would have been too much of a stretch for Germany (especially with war raging in Russia). My bet is they would have marched into the Mioddle East where Germany had vast support in countries like Iraq, and from there moved up into Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, releived the pressure on Army Group South and aided in the German effort against SU (but all this may be a bit far fetched).
Also, since the US is not involved, this means the Japanese have not gone for PH. They probably went for French Indo-China, but may also have decided to aid Germany against the SU. This adds even more pressure on Stalin since he is now fighting a two front war.
Churchill would have dumped so much hardware into the island (so as to maintain its independence), he would have sunk it. Britain would still be the ruller of the seas, but I believe Germany would become the owner of the skies. This does not mean Germany would have invaded Britain again, no, but the RAF would no longer be the dominant air force in the region.
As for the US, what made it a super power was the fact that it entered the war, supplied everyone with pretty much whatever they needed, and came out on top since it shared in the victory, yet did not suffer the loss of a single industry. Without US intervention, the resources devoted mto the war effort would be but a minute fraction, hence the US would not be the undisputed super power. It would be a recognized poewer, but I doubt it would be viewed as more than a small to medium one.
Probably if there was a Cold War, it would have been between Germany and Japan against GB and SU, or simply between Germany and GB.
Best regards,
Oskar
I think there would have been a long stalement in Russia, but Germany eventually would have had the bomb, long before the SU and probably before the US. Since the US is not at war, it does not mobilize fully for it, hence all the resources that went into the AB making would have been severely curtailed (as with all other resources).
In N. Africa, I think Rommel would have won the war effort there, but I doubt they would have marched into Central and Southern Africa. That would have been too much of a stretch for Germany (especially with war raging in Russia). My bet is they would have marched into the Mioddle East where Germany had vast support in countries like Iraq, and from there moved up into Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, releived the pressure on Army Group South and aided in the German effort against SU (but all this may be a bit far fetched).
Also, since the US is not involved, this means the Japanese have not gone for PH. They probably went for French Indo-China, but may also have decided to aid Germany against the SU. This adds even more pressure on Stalin since he is now fighting a two front war.
Churchill would have dumped so much hardware into the island (so as to maintain its independence), he would have sunk it. Britain would still be the ruller of the seas, but I believe Germany would become the owner of the skies. This does not mean Germany would have invaded Britain again, no, but the RAF would no longer be the dominant air force in the region.
As for the US, what made it a super power was the fact that it entered the war, supplied everyone with pretty much whatever they needed, and came out on top since it shared in the victory, yet did not suffer the loss of a single industry. Without US intervention, the resources devoted mto the war effort would be but a minute fraction, hence the US would not be the undisputed super power. It would be a recognized poewer, but I doubt it would be viewed as more than a small to medium one.
Probably if there was a Cold War, it would have been between Germany and Japan against GB and SU, or simply between Germany and GB.
Best regards,
Oskar
If the United States is still supplying the Allies, then the Allies win, it just takes much longer and there are far more casualties.
Remember, the British strategic bombing was very effective.
Up until 1944, the main US contribution is supplies, but don't underestimate this. Without these supplies, both the Soviet Union and England would have been defeated.
Xanthro
Remember, the British strategic bombing was very effective.
Up until 1944, the main US contribution is supplies, but don't underestimate this. Without these supplies, both the Soviet Union and England would have been defeated.
Xanthro
