Type XXI U-Boats
Type XXI U-Boats
What if the Type XXI U-boat had been available in sizeable numbers in, say, 1942 or 1943? How would it have affected the Battle of the Atlantic, and the ASW war overall? This was a radically advanced submarine for it's time and combined high underwater speed with other features such as hydraulically reloaded torpedoes and updated sonars.
I think the allies would have been in a hell of a lot of trouble. If the type XXI's were available in number, say even late 1942, then the allies might lose the battle of the Atlantice.
At a minimum, Overlord is delayed, perhaps a year. Lend-Lease supplies to Russia are lessened. The allies are forced to committ more resources to the Battle of the Atlantic.
The whole European war could change. Ignoring the atomic bomb, Germany just might be able to win the war.
At a minimum, Overlord is delayed, perhaps a year. Lend-Lease supplies to Russia are lessened. The allies are forced to committ more resources to the Battle of the Atlantic.
The whole European war could change. Ignoring the atomic bomb, Germany just might be able to win the war.
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Logan Hartke
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I don't think that it would've changed the outcome of the war. Liberty ships were being built in less than a week, and Americans were developing smart torpedoes. The Americans would've developed smart torpedoes sooner and the Germans would've taken major losses again.
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/1592/ustorp4.htm
Logan Hartke
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/1592/ustorp4.htm
Logan Hartke
But the Tye XXI's were significantly better than any sub afloat in 1945. Most major navys copied its design after the war.
The new subs were at least two or three times as efficient as the ones used in 1943/43. Imagine Germany following up the 7.7 million tons of merchant shipping sunk in 1942 with, say 15 million in 1943. (Not unrealistic for a growing fleet of 100-200 type XXI U-Boats).
Yes, the Liberty ships were comming off the docks at a staggering rate. But think of all the Lend-Lease supplies and US Equipment lost in the trans-Atlantic war. I doubt Overlord could take place without a decisive victory over these U-Boats. And since these boats were faster, could dive deaper, stay submerged longer, etc. It would be a hard battle to win.
The new subs were at least two or three times as efficient as the ones used in 1943/43. Imagine Germany following up the 7.7 million tons of merchant shipping sunk in 1942 with, say 15 million in 1943. (Not unrealistic for a growing fleet of 100-200 type XXI U-Boats).
Yes, the Liberty ships were comming off the docks at a staggering rate. But think of all the Lend-Lease supplies and US Equipment lost in the trans-Atlantic war. I doubt Overlord could take place without a decisive victory over these U-Boats. And since these boats were faster, could dive deaper, stay submerged longer, etc. It would be a hard battle to win.
Last edited by Sam H. on 01 Dec 2002, 03:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Logan Hartke
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I agree with everything that you said, except this...
Logan Hartke
I think that although much would be lost, more than enough would get over to allow the invasion to go on schedule.Sam H. wrote:But think of all the Lend-Lease supplies and US Equipment lost in the trans-Atlantic war. I doubt Overlord could take place without a decisive victory over these U-Boats.
Logan Hartke
Hi Sam
Naval warfare is more of a technological race than any other form of warfare, and as you rightly state the potential of the XXI's, the Allies were always improving methods of detection and destruction eventually the XXI threat would have been nulified through technolgy.
Logan: Dont forget the role played by the Empire ships and LL
Andy from the Shire
Naval warfare is more of a technological race than any other form of warfare, and as you rightly state the potential of the XXI's, the Allies were always improving methods of detection and destruction eventually the XXI threat would have been nulified through technolgy.
Logan: Dont forget the role played by the Empire ships and LL
Andy from the Shire-
Logan Hartke
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- Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 19:30
- Location: Illinois, USA
Yes, its a technology race in this hypothetical U-Boat war. But those damn XXI's are just so much better than anything else. And the Germans will not be standing still either. You've just given the Germans a 2-3 year advantage in technology. That's a big gap in war time.
If you give the Germans another million tons of shipping being sunk each month from Jan. 1943 to June 1944 - that's about 13-14 million tons more than were lost in the OTL. That's a lot of supplies to be lost - and a lot of uncertainty to add to the allies planning.
And just think what those XXI's could do to an invasion force in the English Channel.
In the orignal Normandy Landings, the U-Boats never were able to play a decisive role. If those XXI's could cut the life line to England, or even impede it, those Allied tanks start rolling a whole lot slower. Perhaps Rommel will have time to convince Hitler to release the 15th Army and free his Panzers - but that's a debate for another time.
If you give the Germans another million tons of shipping being sunk each month from Jan. 1943 to June 1944 - that's about 13-14 million tons more than were lost in the OTL. That's a lot of supplies to be lost - and a lot of uncertainty to add to the allies planning.
And just think what those XXI's could do to an invasion force in the English Channel.
In the orignal Normandy Landings, the U-Boats never were able to play a decisive role. If those XXI's could cut the life line to England, or even impede it, those Allied tanks start rolling a whole lot slower. Perhaps Rommel will have time to convince Hitler to release the 15th Army and free his Panzers - but that's a debate for another time.
Guys. I think the technological challenge of countering successfull German deployment of type XXI would have been quite hard job...
Following article fits nicely to this discussion, alltough it is about after war period and Soviet sub threat:
http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/shi ... r-asw.html
Few extracts:
>>> Furthermore, the victory of antisubmarine over submarine forces in the second Battle of the Atlantic proved short-lived, as the end of World War II saw the deployment of new German U-Boats which largely returned to the submarine its recently lost advantages over antisubmarine forces. As the Cold War began, the Soviet Navy adopted these new submarine technologies and the U.S. Navy faced anew the task of developing an effective response to a new submarine challenge in peacetime.
>>> The Type XXI undermined each element of the Allied ASW posture that won the Second Battle. The snorkel, which had a much lower radar cross section than a surfaced submarine, gave the submarine back its tactical mobility. That is, it could once again move at speed on its main engine for great distances without molestation by air ASW forces. A more hydrodynamic hull and greater battery power allowed a completely submerged submarine to go faster for longer than before, allowing it to escape prosecution by sonar-equipped convoy escorts once it had revealed its position by attacking.
>>> Type XXIs had fallen into American, British, and Soviet hands after World War II, and the U.S. Navy rapidly discovered that it would face a major ASW challenge were the Soviet Navy to build large numbers of ocean going Type XXIs.
>>> The evolutionary response focused on two technical challenges: the need to improve snorkel detection by airborne radar, and the need to improve the performance of surface ship sonars against faster, deeper diving targets. Snorkels presented a much smaller radar cross section to a searching radar, and were also harder to detect amongst sea clutter, while the fixed, "searchlight" sonars of World War II could not be trained fast enough to keep up with a submarine moving at 10 or 15 knots. By 1950, the APS-20 radar had recovered much of the detection range lost when snorkels first arrived, and the QHB scanning sonar had improved the ability of a surface ship to hold a submerged contact, but the ASW situation remained troublesome according to several contemporary analyses of the problem, including the Low and Hartwell reports.
Following article fits nicely to this discussion, alltough it is about after war period and Soviet sub threat:
http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/shi ... r-asw.html
Few extracts:
>>> Furthermore, the victory of antisubmarine over submarine forces in the second Battle of the Atlantic proved short-lived, as the end of World War II saw the deployment of new German U-Boats which largely returned to the submarine its recently lost advantages over antisubmarine forces. As the Cold War began, the Soviet Navy adopted these new submarine technologies and the U.S. Navy faced anew the task of developing an effective response to a new submarine challenge in peacetime.
>>> The Type XXI undermined each element of the Allied ASW posture that won the Second Battle. The snorkel, which had a much lower radar cross section than a surfaced submarine, gave the submarine back its tactical mobility. That is, it could once again move at speed on its main engine for great distances without molestation by air ASW forces. A more hydrodynamic hull and greater battery power allowed a completely submerged submarine to go faster for longer than before, allowing it to escape prosecution by sonar-equipped convoy escorts once it had revealed its position by attacking.
>>> Type XXIs had fallen into American, British, and Soviet hands after World War II, and the U.S. Navy rapidly discovered that it would face a major ASW challenge were the Soviet Navy to build large numbers of ocean going Type XXIs.
>>> The evolutionary response focused on two technical challenges: the need to improve snorkel detection by airborne radar, and the need to improve the performance of surface ship sonars against faster, deeper diving targets. Snorkels presented a much smaller radar cross section to a searching radar, and were also harder to detect amongst sea clutter, while the fixed, "searchlight" sonars of World War II could not be trained fast enough to keep up with a submarine moving at 10 or 15 knots. By 1950, the APS-20 radar had recovered much of the detection range lost when snorkels first arrived, and the QHB scanning sonar had improved the ability of a surface ship to hold a submerged contact, but the ASW situation remained troublesome according to several contemporary analyses of the problem, including the Low and Hartwell reports.
Yep.Sam H. wrote:Thanks for the information. I had a feeling those new U-Boats would take a while to get under control.
OK. This is wild speculation because Germans had some problems with Type XXI and deploying such new weapon concept was extremely advantageous (or desparate) project during wartime. But:
I have no doubt that if Germans would have deployed significant numbers of Type XXI in, let's say after mid 1943 - Allied invasion to NW Europe in 1944 would have been absolutely impossible.
Maybe it would have been possible in 1945, but i am not sure of that either...
Still, i have no doubt that US and GB would have eventually won the U-boat menace, but like previous information clearly shows - Type XXI was an revolution in submarine warfare and countering it would have taken years and needed a comparable revolution in ASW equipment. Like it did take in reality also. Western technological response to possible Soviet XXI-type boat threat was started immediately when WW2 ended and it did take roughly 5 years to develope initial, barely satisfactory solutions for countering Soviet XXI-type boats. And western allied were extremely lucky. They did have 5-10 years of peacefull developing time after 1945 before Soviets got their act together and started really challenge NATOs ASW forces, Germans would not had been such polite. During wartime development would naturally had been much faster, but if did take from 1945 to about 1950 in reality, what about starting from 1943 ??
BTW. Does anyone know who idiot suggested that Type XXI should have been equipped with Krieghoff MK-303 cannons ??
I can easily think 1000 more important use for such an effective weapon (not even thinking about additional complication for the boat) than a submarine that would actually fought almost all times under surface - except some transitions over peacefull waters.
I can easily think 1000 more important use for such an effective weapon (not even thinking about additional complication for the boat) than a submarine that would actually fought almost all times under surface - except some transitions over peacefull waters.