The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

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ChristopherPerrien
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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 15 Feb 2015 05:24

glenn239 wrote:
Find and dandy , if you outrank every-one in the Japanese high command
and have a crystal ball as to when then Japanese strike force can/ WILL be detected by US Forces. Maybe you can drive up to Oahu….
“follow up attack”
Okay , December 8 , the next day with a cloudy crystal ball to go on. Then you are sending 105-123 dive-bombers (depending on spare availability +18? and minus aborts -X?) into an ugly mess of ready AA and MG fire , especially at low altitude. Be prepared to lose 50-100 DB's and write off the rest that return.

Also , December 8 might easily be an impossibility anyway, because the Weather front the Japanese used to close into Hawaii and then pasted through, might catch up with them , rendering carrier ops a no-go. Do you have a weather control switch on that crystal ball??

ChristopherPerrien
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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 15 Feb 2015 06:20

Note; There is a topic over on J-aircraft, that infers the VAL never carried wing bombs plus a centerline bomb. And the incident at Santa cruz , with VAL or VALs carrying wing bombs and a centerline bombs, was those "wing bombs" were not actual HE bombs, rather they were target marker/signaling "bombs" or "flares" . Waiting to see if more info comes up.

gurn
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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

Post by gurn » 15 Feb 2015 17:47

http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/D/3/D3A_Val.htm

Range
915 miles
1473 km

http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/B/5/B5N_Kate.htm

Range
608 miles (978 km) normal
1240 miles (2000 km) maximum

http://www.combinedfleet.com/ijna/b5n.htm

B5N1
B5N2
Dimensions:

Span
15.52 m
15.52 m

Length
10.30 m
10.30 m

Height
3.70 m
3.70 m

Wing area
37.7 m2
37.7 m2
Weights:

Empty
2,106 kg
2,279 kg

Loaded
3,700 kg
3,800 kg

Maximum
4,015 kg
4,100 kg

Wing loading
98.1 kg/m2
100.8 kg/m2

Power loading
4.8 kg/hp
3.8 kg/hp
Performance:

Maximum speed
199 kt at 2,000 m
204 kt at 3,600 m

Cruising speed
138 kt at 2,000 m
140 kt at 3,000 m

Climb to
3,000 m
3,000 m

in
7 min 50 sec
7 min 40 sec

Service ceiling
7,400 m
8,260 m

Normal range
590 naut miles
528 naut miles

Maximum range
1,220 naut miles
1,075 naut miles

http://www.combinedfleet.com/ijna/d3a.htm

D3A1
D3A2
Dimensions:

Span
14.37 m
14.37 m

Length
10.20 m
10.20 m

Height
3.85 m
3.85 m

Wing area
34.9 m2
34.9 m2
Weights:

Empty
2,408 kg
2,570 kg

Loaded
3,650 kg
3,800 kg

Wing loading
104.6 kg/m2
108.9 kg/m2

Power loading
3.7 kg/hp
2.9 kg/hp
Performance:

Maximum speed
209 kt at 3,000 m
232 kt at 6,200 m

Cruising speed
160 kt at 3,000 m
160 kt at 3,000 m

Climb to
3,000 m
3,000 m

in
6 min 27 sec
5 min 48 sec

Service ceiling
9,300 m
10,500 m

Range
795 naut miles
730 naut miles

Military Aircraft Visual Encyclopedia JIm Winchester Amber Books 2009
gives
840 miles for the Val
1237 for Kate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aichi_D3A 915 miles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakajima_B5N 1237 miles



These numbers are all over the place. Damm Statistics anyway.
now I'm just more confused. :(

gurn
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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

Post by gurn » 15 Feb 2015 18:07

Well I'll throw in a couple more more
http://ww2db.com/aircraft_spec.php?airc ... del_id=B81
B5N2

Machinery One Nakajima Sakae 11 radial engine rated at 1,000hp
Armament 1x7.7mm Type 92 machine gun, 1x800kg Type 91 torpedo or 3x250kg bombs or 6x60kg bombs
Crew 3
Span 15.52 m
Length 10.30 m
Height 3.70 m
Wing Area 37.70 m²
Weight, Empty 2,279 kg
Weight, Loaded 3,800 kg
Weight, Maximum 4,100 kg
Speed, Maximum 367 km/h
Rate of Climb 6.50 m/s
Service Ceiling 8,260 m
Range, Normal 1,935 km
http://ww2db.com/aircraft_spec.php?airc ... del_id=B78
D3A1

Machinery One Mitsubishi Kinsei 3 14-cylinder air-cooled radial engine rated at 840hp2x
Armament 3x7.7mm Type 97 machine guns, 1x250kg bomb, 2x60kg bombs
Crew 2
Span 14.37 m
Length 10.20 m
Height 3.85 m
Wing Area 34.90 m²
Weight, Empty 2,408 kg
Weight, Loaded 3,650 kg
Speed, Maximum 387 km/h
Speed, Cruising 296 km/h
Service Ceiling 9,300 m
Range, Normal 1,472 km


D3A2

Machinery One Mitsubishi Kinsei 54 14-cylinder air-cooled radial engine rated at 1,300hp
Armament 3x7.7mm Type 97 machine guns, 1x250kg bomb, 2x60kg bombs
Crew 2
Span 14.37 m
Length 10.20 m
Height 3.85 m
Wing Area 34.90 m²
Weight, Empty 2,570 kg
Weight, Loaded 3,800 kg
Speed, Maximum 430 km/h
Speed, Cruising 296 km/h
Rate of Climb 8.62 m/s
Service Ceiling 10,500 m
Range, Normal 1,352 km

ChristopherPerrien
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Location: Mississippi

Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 15 Feb 2015 19:48

Yea, figures are all over the place. The Combined Fleet Kate figs are "interesting".Is "noraml" range , with a torp, and Max range without? IDK

Guess I could do a topic over there about these discrepancies. Between Lundstrom, Tully Parshall, Leonard, OP, et al. Somebody ought to have a straight answer.

Addenda , IIRC, The striking range for the Pearl Harbor attack force was primarily based on estimated US detection range and time of day. Note the Japanese closed further distance between the 2 attack waves- 40 more miles. So basically range of the VAl or the Kate , was not a predicate issue for the launch point/distance.

Still it would be nice to know why so many sources state widely varying figs for the range of the Kate and Val.
Last edited by ChristopherPerrien on 15 Feb 2015 20:25, edited 2 times in total.

OpanaPointer
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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

Post by OpanaPointer » 15 Feb 2015 19:49

Quick note. The arguments over the raid on Pearl Harbor have now gone on approximately 290,367 times long than the actual event.

I now return you to the endless debate.
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

gurn
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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

Post by gurn » 06 Mar 2015 17:46

ChristopherPerrien wrote:Yea, figures are all over the place. The Combined Fleet Kate figs are "interesting".Is "noraml" range , with a torp, and Max range without? IDK

Guess I could do a topic over there about these discrepancies. Between Lundstrom, Tully Parshall, Leonard, OP, et al. Somebody ought to have a straight answer.

Addenda , IIRC, The striking range for the Pearl Harbor attack force was primarily based on estimated US detection range and time of day. Note the Japanese closed further distance between the 2 attack waves- 40 more miles. So basically range of the VAl or the Kate , was not a predicate issue for the launch point/distance.

Still it would be nice to know why so many sources state widely varying figs for the range of the Kate and Val.

I amwondering if any more info regarding ranges is available? :)

glenn239
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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

Post by glenn239 » 06 Mar 2015 18:18

gurn wrote: I amwondering if any more info regarding ranges is available? :)
Nothing with any certainty here. The D3A1 had 285 gallons max and cruised at about 36 gallons per hour, giving it a range of about 7.5 hours, or 900 miles. Drop that by a third for a reserve and it's about a 300 mile radius. Switch out gas for two extra 60kg bombs, and that give up about an hour of flight time, maybe 240 mile radius with a gas reserve.

RichTO90
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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

Post by RichTO90 » 06 Mar 2015 19:26

glenn239 wrote:
gurn wrote: I amwondering if any more info regarding ranges is available? :)
Nothing with any certainty here. The D3A1 had 285 gallons max and cruised at about 36 gallons per hour, giving it a range of about 7.5 hours, or 900 miles. Drop that by a third for a reserve and it's about a 300 mile radius. Switch out gas for two extra 60kg bombs, and that give up about an hour of flight time, maybe 240 mile radius with a gas reserve.
The trade off for 120kg of bombs would be circa 44-45 gallons of avgas.

glenn239
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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

Post by glenn239 » 07 Mar 2015 15:05

RichTO90 wrote: The trade off for 120kg of bombs would be circa 44-45 gallons of avgas.
15% of range in lost gas, let's say 20% to be safe. That would be 280 mile radius shrunk down to 220 mile radius.

robdab
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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

Post by robdab » 14 Feb 2017 02:28

.
Glenn239,

In about 3 months, it will be a decade since you posted your "Operation Tinkerbell" scenario for an alternative history invasion of Hawaii. I was wondering when we might expect to see you post a Tinkerbell Mk. II update ?
.

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

Post by T. A. Gardner » 14 Feb 2017 03:49

Image :roll:

robdab
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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

Post by robdab » 14 Feb 2017 05:34

Well, you're safe on that count T.A.

glenn239
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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

Post by glenn239 » 14 Feb 2017 18:26

T. A. Gardner wrote:Image :roll:
Hey, Tinkerbell back from the dead! If you sort by number of views, it's second behind Battle of Britain on the whole What If forum. But BoB is stuck on the front page while this one goes under for years at a time....

glenn239
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Re: The invasion of Oahu, December 1941.

Post by glenn239 » 14 Feb 2017 18:29

robdab wrote:.
In about 3 months, it will be a decade since you posted your "Operation Tinkerbell" scenario for an alternative history invasion of Hawaii. I was wondering when we might expect to see you post a Tinkerbell Mk. II update ?
.
Never. The original could use some tweaking and cleaning up, but I won't be doing it.

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