British invasion of Norway summer 1941

[panzerkrieg]

With the germans occupied in Russia and german navy weakened after the loss of bismarck
the british strike against norway [ to help uncle joe offcourse!]

the 2 german BC with prinz eugen are in brest, tirpitiz not fully worked up and the panzerschiffes and hipper undergoing refits the germans have really no major units to challenge the RN.

All they have are the coastal batteries , minefields, submarines and torpedo boats , what are the chances that the british will gain a foothold there ?

IMHO they have very good chances, dont think the RN will have any trouble landing a huge force there

[ plz focus more on the naval aspect of actually getting the troops to land rather than winning the land war]

[phylo_roadking]

All they have are the coastal batteries , minefields, submarines and torpedo boats , what are the chances that the british will gain a foothold there ?

ALL? remember the Blucher....

[Carl Schwamberger]

A "foothold"? Its possible. But to what stratigic end? The terrain is difficult and the theatre is just as easy for Germny to reinforce as for Britian. It is unlikely Britian would be able to cut off the Swedish iron ore shipments via the Baltic. Any threat to the ore supply would lead to a serious German counter attack.

The primary benefit would be to the USSR. A Norwegian campaign would lead to diversion of supplies & aircraft needed to fight in the east, or the Med. If the Brits can nuetralize the German air & naval bases in northern Norway then supplies reach the Red Army more effciently. A secondary benifit would be the complication of the submarine campaign for the Germans. The northern route to the Atlantic would become more dificult for the subs.

[maltesefalcon]

Actually; Hitler would have been better off, if the British did invade. At least he would have some justification for the huge force deployed there. As it was, a sizeable portion of the Wehrmacht sat idle for most of the war.

[Tim Smith]

British invasion of Norway in 1941?

British have naval superiority, Germans have air superiority.

The RAF don't yet have a long-range fighter that can reach Norway and still have enough fuel for a dogfight. They can send lots of bombers, but for fighters, they'll have to rely on carrier-borne fighters - and the RN doesn't have too many of those in summer 1941. Also, those they do have are inferior to even the old Bf 109E by a wide margin. Neither the few early Martlets (Wildcats) or the two-seat Fairey Fulmar can match the 109. Even the Sea Hurricane is outclassed - and the RN doesn't yet have any Seafires (navalised Spitfires).

The British might be OK on Day One if they catch the Germans by surprise, but after that things could get very difficult.

So unless the British can capture and supply an airfield very quickly, then they are soon going to be in trouble with the Luftwaffe. More 109s can easily be transferred from Belgium and France to reinforce the ones already based in Norway.

Basically, landing in Norway and capturing a port and an airfield won't be that difficult - possibly a little bloody but achievable. The difficulty will be in holding it for any worthwhile length of time.

[LWD]

And it's easier in the North which is less important. If they could sieze southern Norway they could make it much harder for the Germans to get into the Atlantic. But that's attacking into the Germans strength and surprise is very unlikely. Siezing a little bit of norther Norway is going to have limited stratgegic value (afterall they did for a little while after the original invasion as I recall but evacuated.

[Lars]

Perhaps the best possible British idea would be a large commando raid in the summer of 1941. Land, blow up something spectacular, and get the heck out of Norway. A raid big enough to let Hitler feel caught off balance and perhaps do something stupid, like sending Luftwaffe assets to Norway and deploy u-boats along the Norwegian coast.

[panzerkrieg]

do the british even need air superority the luftwaffe lacked the capability to sink RN cruisers , battleships

[Carl Schwamberger]

Perhaps the best possible British idea would be a large commando raid in the summer of 1941. Land, blow up something spectacular, and get the heck out of Norway. A raid big enough to let Hitler feel caught off balance and perhaps do something stupid, like sending Luftwaffe assets to Norway and deploy u-boats along the Norwegian coast.

Hear Hear!

I recall the 26/27 Dec. 1941 raids on the Lofoten Is. and Vassago Is. Was Spitzenberg raided as well? And in the spring of 1942 I recall the US Ranger made a airraid on Norway.

I also recall that by 1943 over 300,000 German soldiers, seamen, & airmen were posted to Norway and some 400 combat aircraft.

[panzerkrieg]

bumping this topic up as its kinda related to my "anti-shipping capability of luftwaffe " topic in luftwaffe section

if RN battleships can survive against luftwaffe attacks then surely the invasion is very much possible
ans as far as I know only 12 second rate german divisions were in norway

[mescal]

bumping this topic up as its kinda related to my "anti-shipping capability of luftwaffe " topic in luftwaffe section

if RN battleships can survive against luftwaffe attacks then surely the invasion is very much possible

Even if sinking a battleship is a difficult task for an air force, mission-killing it (that is, inflicting enough damage to force her to turn back) is not.
Moreover I'm not sure that BBs are the most required ships for a 1941 Norway invasion (troop density is very light, so after the few first hours you will not need heavy naval artillery support). You will primarily need AAA and ASW escorts, that is mainly cruisers, destroyers, frigates.

[Lkefct]

Given the fact that the British would be exposing their navy to prolonged exposure to Uboats and air attacks, and run the risk of losing large amounts of shipping at a time when they are just starting to slow the sinkings in the Atlantic, what would be the purpose of taking Norway?

[glenn239]

To get bases closer to Germany from which to bomb it.

[Carl Schwamberger]

I used to think there would be a range advantage, but a couple minutes with a map showed it to be small. There is clearly a advantage in a second direction to approach the industrial cities from, and the Baltic ship traffic is closer.

Norway is a large region and the adantages lie in where the intial invasion is made. As mentioned before here the Germans can reinforce the place as easily as the British (at least until the Brits accquire overwhelming air superiority), and the British do not have a huge field army to commit to imediate conquest. so, it is likely that what the Brits take early on will be added to only slowly. I see three general areas where the Brits might establsih a enclave:

Northern. This is the most difficult for the Germans to reinforce. They have the advantage of two overland routes, one up through Norway & the other via Finnland to Norways northernmost border. The advantage for the British is this area best protects the northern convoys to the USSR. It also gives them the option of subsequent attacks east in a dual offensive with the USSR vs any Axis army remaining in northern Finnland. This sort of campaign would have some morale value on top of elminating the air threat to the northern convoys. The northern Norwegian ports were not much value to the German submarines, nor are the air bases there optimal for interpting submarines in the North Sea.

Central. This area allows closing the sea route, the port of Narvik, for tranporting iron ore to Germany. This is not catastophic as the somewhat less effcient rail route to the Baltic ports remains open. It does place British airbases a little closer to the routes the submarines must follow when transiting to and from Germany. It also eliminates a minor ports the subs might use. As in the Northern option the German can maintain a ground force on the British north flank via Finnland. It also leaves the airbases in the north for use against the convoys to USSR.

Southern. While the ports facing the North Sea can be siezed fair quickly the Germans could defend the interior for many months, and they retain control of the north and central areas. This area does place the British in a good position for air and surface interception patrols vs the submarines leaving Germany. It can also be used to flank Germany air defense and force it to be redeployed and streatched thinner. While the ground forces of Britian are still limited in 1941 a enclave in Southern Norway provides the best position for expanding inland to Oslo and the Swedish border, and northwards. After reading some of the literature on Swedens attitude and the various discussions between Sweden and Britian it appears that one of the obstacles to Sweden cutting off trade to Germany was the isolation. Sweden was beyond help were German to attack it. With the British eventually in control of Southern Norway the Swedes are not isolated and the option for cooperation with the Allies is practical. This is not likely to bear out until late 1942 or later.

The time required to build up the ground forces and the various air and naval bases, then to expand the enclave until it accqures atratigic weight is the trick here. The Brits may have to commit a lot of resources to accomplish anything in Norway. Of course to force this the Germans must do so as well. Not only are substantial reinforcements required to hold in the Brits, but this is going to become another attritional battle the Germans could not afford. To hold onto a signficant position in Norway ground and airforces elsewhere must be removed. That aids the Allied position proportionatly in the Mediterrainian and the USSR.

[phylo_roadking]

Two major advantages to such an invasion would be - of course, stopping the German attacks on British convoys to North Russia that started in the late summer of 1941...

And stopping German supplies of Swedish iron ore - the original aim of the Narvik operation in 1940. The RAF and Coastal Command weren't really able to close this down for a couple more years - the transporting of Swedish iron ore down the coastal waters of Norway for seven months of the year - until they had effective aircraft like the Mosquito and ultimately the Beaufighter/Torbeau, with an effective range and linger time in the area for shiphunting.