What if America...

Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
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Mike K.
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What if America...

Post by Mike K. » 26 Dec 2002 05:00

What if America had sided with Germany in the Great War? Let's say the American armaments industry favored Central Power markets during the First World War, but British naval harassment further antagonized America into alignment against the Allies. Does Germany win World War I? Or will they lose anyway? Will America then side with Hitler?

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Post by Logan Hartke » 26 Dec 2002 06:27

Win - the 1918 attack would succeed and Britain would starve.

Logan Hartke

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davethelight
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WWI - America

Post by davethelight » 26 Dec 2002 06:39

I personally find it extremely hard to envisage America siding against Britain during WWI, even with her isolationist attitude, so many of the citizens of the US were decendants of Britain and the ancestral bonds must have been strong, as they probably are even now.

I think it more plausable that America simply remained neutral, if this had happened, Germany would probably have won because Russia was finished and Britain and France were close to being spent themselves.
The one million or so troops that Germany brought back from Russia and deployed in the west in 1918 would probably have knocked a way through the allied defences and Britain and France would have been unable to stop it.

That said, I guess WWII would never have happened, and the world might still have turned out to be a relatively nice place to live with the Nazis never coming on the scene.

Anyway, I thought this was a WWII forum!

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Mike K.
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Post by Mike K. » 26 Dec 2002 06:45

I personally find it extremely hard to envisage America siding against Britain during WWI, even with her isolationist attitude, so many of the citizens of the US were decendants of Britain and the ancestral bonds must have been strong, as they probably are even now.
Well, Britain was the arch-nemesis of America for some time. :)

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davethelight
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America - WWI

Post by davethelight » 26 Dec 2002 07:05

Yeah true, but by the 20th century they were good buddys again :D

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Ozarius
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Post by Ozarius » 26 Dec 2002 17:08

Actually, more Americans are of German decent than English, although I'm not sure if that was the case during that time. Does anyone else know?

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Post by saculylad » 26 Dec 2002 21:18

Is that really true Ozarius? I find that quite surprising. Why then do they speak English and not German?

I have to agree that it would be possible for them to side with Germany as i remember they sent a telegram to the Kaiser in 1871 congratulating them on becoming a federal state. There is some friendliness there, the list of americans who loved Hitler and his chums seems to go on and on. With anyone in power other that roosevelt who knows?

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Post by Nagelfar » 26 Dec 2002 21:41

thats true... I think there are even more irish descendants than english!

people speak english because everyone conformed to the original founders of the nation

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Post by davethelight » 27 Dec 2002 04:11

Nah, America was a democracy, as was Britain and France (still talking about WWI here). That, combined with their ancestry and I still reckon the chances of America coming in on the side of Germany are extremely small. And 1871 was a long time before 1914.

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Mike K.
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Post by Mike K. » 27 Dec 2002 04:49

davethelight wrote:Nah, America was a democracy, as was Britain and France (still talking about WWI here). That, combined with their ancestry and I still reckon the chances of America coming in on the side of Germany are extremely small. And 1871 was a long time before 1914.
Despite what Widrow Wilson's propaganda machine spewed, Imperial Germany was a far cry from totalitarian. The Kaiser was a constitutional monarch, and both he and his Chancellor needed the approval of the Reichstag to enact legislative proposals. Reichstag representives were public officials elected by secret ballot, and Germany had six major political parties.

And concerning ancestry, many large ethnic groups and immigrants were pro-Central Powers; Irish and Germans Americans for example. :)

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Post by Anthony EJW » 27 Dec 2002 13:17

nuplicid wrote:Despite what Widrow Wilson's propaganda machine spewed, Imperial Germany was a far cry from totalitarian. The Kaiser was a constitutional monarch, and both he and his Chancellor needed the approval of the Reichstag to enact legislative proposals. Reichstag representives were public officials elected by secret ballot, and Germany had six major political parties.

And concerning ancestry, many large ethnic groups and immigrants were pro-Central Powers; Irish and Germans Americans for example. :)
While, on the surface, the Reichstag may have seen a pinicle of democracy, it was largly impotent. "It could reject money bills but could not initiate legislation. Although in some respects the Reichtag's influence grew during the new century, it 'remained ultimately impotent.'" The Kaiser and his court remained at the centre of German political life, and unlike his British counterpart there were few effective checks on his power.

"The Kaiser was commander in chief of the armed forces, and could hire and fire the Chancellor, the rough equivilent to the British Prime Minister. The Chancellor himself was not answerable to the Reichstag. Neither were the German equivilent of 'ministers', who were actually state secretaries working within the Chancellor's department."

"Forgotten Victory, Gary Sheffield."

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davethelight
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Post by davethelight » 27 Dec 2002 15:59

Re ancestry. Maybee I don't know enough about American ethnic ancestry in the early twentieth century, but I still suspect though that there would have been more people descended from the UK than there would have been from Germany/Austria.

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Andy
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Post by Andy » 27 Dec 2002 19:11

How could America have sent troops to Germany if they sided with the Central Powers?

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Gyles
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Post by Gyles » 27 Dec 2002 20:52

This (obviously) is a highly unlikely occurance. The US and Imperial Germany were economic enemies and their intrests frequently clashed in the New World. In 1901 the Kaiser nearly went ahead with an invasion of the East Coast. The aim would have been to ransack New York and gain economic concessions from the States before the USN became too powerfull.

In any case if for some strange reason the US sides with Germany the Central Powers win. British troops would be relocated to Canada and the Naval blockade against Germany would be far less effective. Germany would get all it's original original claims. Britain retains it's empire but most likely be forced into neuttrality. I don;t know whats in it for America.

IMO a future war against Germany couldn't be avoided. Imperial Germany was very militaristic, vehemently anti-semitic and many of the National Socialist beliefs were already deeply embedded in 1914. In any case they would be the biggest power on the mainland and at some point come to blows with Communist Russia.

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Mike K.
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Post by Mike K. » 29 Dec 2002 01:16

In any case if for some strange reason the US sides with Germany the Central Powers win. British troops would be relocated to Canada and the Naval blockade against Germany would be far less effective. Germany would get all it's original original claims. Britain retains it's empire but most likely be forced into neuttrality. I don;t know whats in it for America.
Parts of Canada, some overseas colonies perhaps? I'm sure the fledgling colonial power America would be eager to stake a claim in some parts of the British Empire, as done to the Spanish in the Spanish-American war.
IMO a future war against Germany couldn't be avoided. Imperial Germany was very militaristic, vehemently anti-semitic and many of the National Socialist beliefs were already deeply embedded in 1914. In any case they would be the biggest power on the mainland and at some point come to blows with Communist Russia.
I don't think the Second Reich was any more anti-Semitic than America, or the rest of the world for that matter. Certainly a different culture, and "Prussian militarism" was an element of society.

Everyone thought war with the Soviet Union was inevitable after 1945 too. :)

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