What if America...

Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
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Gyles
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Post by Gyles » 29 Dec 2002 01:35

Parts of Canada, some overseas colonies perhaps? I'm sure the fledgling colonial power America would be eager to stake a claim in some parts of the British Empire, as done to the Spanish in the Spanish-American war.
Your right, something would have to give.
I don't think the Second Reich was any more anti-Semitic than America, or the rest of the world for that matter.
Believe me it was. Ive got a decent bibliography on the subject and the final conclusion is that Hiters views of Pax-Germanica, anti-semitism militirism, Lebensraum, Volkgemeinshaft etc were widely held. The National Socialists simply built on what was already there.
Everyone thought war with the Soviet Union was inevitable after 1945 too.
It came closer than people think on many occasions. Besides a little thing like MAD can't be ignored :wink:
Last edited by Gyles on 29 Dec 2002 01:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Mike K.
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Post by Mike K. » 29 Dec 2002 01:36

Andy wrote:How could America have sent troops to Germany if they sided with the Central Powers?
Interesting question. Britain undoubtedly commanded the seas. However, with America as a Central Power, the theatre of war would be extended to the western hemisphere. Canada would be threatened with invasion, and Britain would have to extend troops overseas to defend her; troops desperately needed in France instead. With the collapse of Czarist Russia, and the influx of reinforcements from the eastern front, the Allies would be forced to see the hopelessness of their situation and come to terms with the Central Powers.

As I said above, America would most likely receive parts of Canada and overseas colonies. Germany would retain large sections of the east seceded to her by the newly formed Communist Russia and would annex invaded French and Belgian territory.

What happens to Austria and the Ottoman Empire is less certain. They both would likely demand large concessions from Russia, which may or may not be willing to deliver after surrendering so much to Germany. Both empires were being torn apart by nationalism prior to the war, and would probably dissolve sometime afterwards even if they had been victorious.

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Mike K.
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Post by Mike K. » 29 Dec 2002 01:43

Gyles wrote: Believe me it was. Ive got a decent bibliography on the subject and the final conclusion is that Hiters views of Pax-Germanica, militirism, Lebensraum, Volkgemeinshaft etc were widely held.
Certainly anti-Semitism wasn't a Nazi invention, but then again neither is it German. The same applies to Lebensraum. In America it was called "Manifest Destiny," and instead of Slavs it was Native Americans. ;)

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peter_suciu
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What if England AND America sided with Germany

Post by peter_suciu » 30 Dec 2002 21:45

I think the real point worth making is that England and Germany (Prussia) were traditional allies against powers like Russia and France. That changed as Germany built up a naval fleet to rival the British. England was pushed into an alliance with France and got Russia in the process. That alienated Turkey and further drew the lines down the middle.

I've often thought that the war would be very different if England remained friendly to Germany. That would only take Bismark staying in power a little longer and Willie realizing that he wasn't as good at diplomacy as the Iron Chancellor.

If England stays allied with Germany than France and Russia would easily lose The Great War, even if England and the US stay neutral.

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Mike K.
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Post by Mike K. » 31 Dec 2002 05:34

If America had just stayed neutral Germany would have won. Germany's defeat can be directly attributed to Wilson's intervention.

Ron Birch
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Post by Ron Birch » 31 Dec 2002 07:37

I thought that Germany was one of the least anti-semitic nations of Europe at that time. :?

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Andy
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Post by Andy » 31 Dec 2002 08:06

nuplicid wrote:If America had just stayed neutral Germany would have won. Germany's defeat can be directly attributed to Wilson's intervention.
I don't know about that one. It is not like the Germans were doing very good against those forces. It was mainly the British and French forces that stopped the great 1918 offensive.

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Mike K.
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Post by Mike K. » 31 Dec 2002 08:23

Jews were guaranteed legal equality by the state, which interestingly enough was extremely conservative. Antisemitic political parties never amounted to more than 3% of the total vote throughout the Second Reich.

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Mike K.
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Post by Mike K. » 31 Dec 2002 08:31

Andy wrote:I don't know about that one. It is not like the Germans were doing very good against those forces. It was mainly the British and French forces that stopped the great 1918 offensive.
The 1918 offensive was a panicked effort to knock France out of the war before vast American reinforcements arrived. If America had stayed neutral it wouldn't have been nessicary, and the Allies would be in a bad position with Russia knocked out of the war.

It's likely France and England would have sued for peace and Germany would be sitting pretty on the Brest-Litovsk Treaty and an annexed Belgium. :)

Ron Birch
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Post by Ron Birch » 31 Dec 2002 08:35

Hello Nuplicid,

Thanks for the information, I new I read or head that before. :)

Attila the Hunking
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Post by Attila the Hunking » 01 Jan 2003 18:26

Believe me it was. Ive got a decent bibliography on the subject and the final conclusion is that Hiters views of Pax- Germanica, anti-semitism militirism, Lebensraum, Volkgemeinshaft etc were widely held. The National Socialists simply built on what was already there.
This is not wholly wrong yet it's not exactly right. It's true that the main contents of german Nationalsocialism already existed in the late 19th century. These were created by few Intellectuals obsessed with antisemitism ,some kind of distorted gemanic mythicism and the belief of supremacy of aryan people above those of non-aryan descent.
Nevertheless, this does not mean their view were shared by the majority of the people or at least that these were a special german feature.
Strong nationalistic views and a preference for national myths were not uncommon among european nations that time, especially prior to ww1.
As for militarism, yeah this attitude used to prevail in imperial Germany - but not just there. France, for instance, managed to mobilize a higher percentage of her able-bodied male population into the french armed forces than the germans could do vice versa.
Yet I doubt militarism was still going strong in Germany after the experiences made from 1914-18.

As for "Volksgemeinschaft" :Except for times of national euphoria, germans were always used to identify themselves first as members of their native region, eg. as Bavarians, Prussians , Pommerians, Saxons etc. and then as germans as members of the same Nation. The idea of a homogenous community of people without different social classes and non-existend Individualism was actually strange to them.( Of course, german citizens wre expected to obey orders of their authorities and to fight and sacrifice themselves for their fatherland.) Compare the german post-ww1 society to the Nazi-idea of the Volksgemeinschaft. I should not be much resemblance.

The jewish people in Germany seemed to be quite well
integrated into german society. Most of them considered themselves as beeing german and in general, they weren't less patriotic than non-jewish
germans. Take for instance Fritz Haber who as a chemist of jewish descent and head of a research-group for chemical weapons thought it was his duty to provide germany with the capability to carry out davastating gas attacks by the use of chlocic gas. Even today some holocaust survivors say that german jews loved their country that time.
Now, how could this be if the majority of the german people harboured antisemitic feelings , shunned , rejected and mistreated their jewish fellow citizens?

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