Stalingrad

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Lord Gort
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Stalingrad

Post by Lord Gort » 02 Jan 2003 17:46

Had Hitler not changed, rechanged and changed again the plans for operation Blue involving the push for the Volga and the invasion of the Caucasian oil fields causing a massive wasetage of fuel according to Anthony Beevor would have Stalingrad fallen more quickly and the Soviet Armies smashed beyond hope of recovery, even Astrachan on the caspian reached?

voltar
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Post by voltar » 02 Jan 2003 20:30

Really, now his this fuel he would have saved. How would that stop the millions of reinforcements pouring into nthe area? I mean even if Hitler could captured 100% of Stalingrad and then could actually cross the Volga he would be met with the fiercest resistance with the Soviet Unions new hardware and fresh troops.

wotan
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Post by wotan » 03 Jan 2003 13:00

The germans had still in 42 superior tactics in battles fought in open land. If the 6th army hadnt been waisted in street fights the russians forces would have had a tough fight in trying to liberate a surrounded stalingrad and probably would have failed in doing so. But would it change the outcome? probably not, USSR allready outproduced the germans and it would just take longer for germany to go to "total war".

6th army represented the best of the whermach at that time and loosing them was a massiv blow. If it hadnt happened it might have been possible for the germans to have tried a larger offensive in 43 (moscow).

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TIBERIVS
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Post by TIBERIVS » 04 Jan 2003 09:02

Would this have stopped the 6th army from being surrounded/cut off from the north? The Soviets counteratttacked with plenty of T-34's didnt they?

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Tanker
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Post by Tanker » 04 Jan 2003 13:45

Stalingrad was a big mistake of the German (Nazi) Leadership.Politics and battlefield doesn't cope.The German generals never would have attacked Stalingrad,they would have kept moving eastwards to the main target of Heeresgruppe B,the oilfields of Baku.Hitler is the one to blame about this desaster and end of his own dreams.

VOLUND
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stalingrad

Post by VOLUND » 04 Jan 2003 15:10

hello there,can anyone tell me what the plan was if the the axis forces took stalingrad,if they crosed the volga wouldnt they have been in a worse situation ,similar to the russians with their backs against the river???? :? :?

wotan
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Post by wotan » 04 Jan 2003 15:41

Would this have stopped the 6th army from being surrounded/cut off from the north? The Soviets counteratttacked with plenty of T-34's didnt they?
The 6th army was an elite formation together with Hoths army to the south. At the same time the axis had control of the skies so any USSR attack on these two formations would be tougher than hell. Actually a great russian counter attack earlier (sept. 42) faild when facing the 6th army in open terrain.

What went wrong for the 6th army in stalingrad?

1. Getting involved in street fights wich blooded the troops and armour to little use. Even excperienced panzer crews where waisted as inf. soldiers.

2. When the russians prepared to launch Uranus Paulus didnt take any prepartions to adjust the army to the new threat, he just stayed in the city as dead duck.

3. When Hoths army attacked from the south to free the surrounded soldiers inside the sity he got within 42 kilometers. Paulus did nothing to assist the attempts to help out. He must surely have known that this was his only chance but still failed to act.

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Post by ISU-152 » 04 Jan 2003 16:11

wotan wrote: 3. When Hoths army attacked from the south to free the surrounded soldiers inside the sity he got within 42 kilometers. Paulus did nothing to assist the attempts to help out. He must surely have known that this was his only chance but still failed to act.
Paulus had 40 working tanks and as much fuel to run them for 30 km. Plus the starving soldiers - not much of a fighter force. By the time Manstein was trying to break through 6th Army was unoperational - thousands of wounded, frozen, starving, typhoid soldiers - that's why so little of them returned from captivity - their health was so deteriorated by then that they could not survive as POW's.

wotan
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Post by wotan » 04 Jan 2003 17:43

their health was so deteriorated by then that they could not survive as POW's
Well, not to mention the conditions the POW's had. Both GER and USSR treated the POW's with little respect.

Its a long shot to claim that it was the general conditions of the germans/romanians before the captivity that killed them. Of 140k men only 5k lived to return home :(

Paulus had 40 working tanks and as much fuel to run them for 30 km. Plus the starving soldiers - not much of a fighter force
Still it was a "fighting force" and he should have done much more to try and break ut.. he did absolutely nothing. Paulus said that he would move if Hoth came within 20k but since this didnt happen he just laid down and died.. He must have known that they would probably die anyway so trying to break out in a last desperate attemt would have been natural.

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Napoli
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Post by Napoli » 06 Jan 2003 02:25

The question should not be "what if" but "how far they could get past Stalingrad".
I disagree to the theory of the power of the German army. Sure they had great tactics and machinery up to '42 but it dosnt take long for another country to adopt the same tactics and improve them which is what the Russians did. Show me where in the space of equipment Germany began to dominate after this period? Not alot of area's and in small numbers.
The tide was turning here boys, it was only the location where the counter offensive would happen which is the final question.


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wotan
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Post by wotan » 06 Jan 2003 11:10

As I said earlier, USSR outproduced GER already in 42 so there is no doubt that the warluck was turning anyway. The question is still how well would GER be able to defend themselfe in 43,44 if they hadnt lost 6th army in stalingrad and blooded the panzers in Kursk. Many GER officers made a point of the fact that the USSR losses could not go on forever and that a sucsessfull defence could bleed USSR to death.

Probably GER would loose anyway..

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Post by Gwynn Compton » 07 Jan 2003 07:19

Perhaps the survival of 6th Army could have reduced the setbacks suffered by the Germans from their retreat that winter. It may have also have had benefits to withstanding Operation Bagration. However, ultimately, I feel the Russians would have overwhelmed the Germans.

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Napoli
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Post by Napoli » 07 Jan 2003 10:02

I think they may have dragged the Axis into a false feeling they were gaining so much land every day till the point a line would have been formed waiting for them and then sadly it may have ended even worse as supply lines would have been dragged beyond help and cut to shreds not just encircling the 6th G army, but all armies that took part in the sector including reserve units. Remebering that some got away from the encirclements, this may not have happened if they went much further into Russia's interior.
Both my great uncles were part of the Italian 8th that was there Nth of Stalingrad, it was their opinion of what I just said.

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Post by Nagelfar » 07 Jan 2003 10:49

(of course, 'wotan' takes the "one eyed" alien avatar LOL :lol: )

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Balamut
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Post by Balamut » 07 Jan 2003 17:03

Its a long shot to claim that it was the general conditions of the germans/romanians before the captivity that killed them. Of 140k men only 5k lived to return home

Of 91k actually.

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