Stalingrad

[wotan]

Of 91k actually

Its hard to find exact figures of how many axis soldiers taken POW's after Stalingrad but 290 000 soldiers were taken in the trap. Of those about 40 000 were flown out and its generally belived that 110 000 died, leaving 140 000 prisoners..

Ehere do you have the figure 91k from?

[ISU-152]

Of 91k actually

Its hard to find exact figures of how many axis soldiers taken POW's after Stalingrad but 290 000 soldiers were taken in the trap. Of those about 40 000 were flown out and its generally belived that 110 000 died, leaving 140 000 prisoners..

Ehere do you have the figure 91k from?

Hello, Wotan. Great avatar.

Actually the figures come from the russian sources, that's how much they actually captured. The rest died in the pocket from typhoid, starvation and frostbites.

As for the claim I made on why so few POW's survived, it was not because they were treated badly, it was because their health was already so poor that not even normal nourishment would help some of them survive. 75% of those captured suffered from dystrophy, a lot of them were already ill with typhoid - a disease quite incurable in the 40's.
Of course the POW camp is not a picnic, but in general german prisoners were treated much better than their soviet counterparts, wouldn't you agree?
Paulus said this: "As for the conditions in the camp I shall not complain - at least we have the bread while the russian children don't have any".

[Sokol]

The figures are as follows: 91,000 were captured, 9,000 returned home several years after the war ended. BTW even if it was possible to break out of the Stalingrad pocket, it was forbidden by Hitler, who had publically announced to the German people, mere months prior to the encirclement, that Stalingrad would never fall. This was strangely ironic, as the 6th Army had not even managed to seize the entire city, let alone hold it against an enemy. Hitler even made Paulus a Field Marshall, to discourage him from surrendering.

[wotan]

ISU-152, is 91k the figure of how many that surrendered in Stalingrad or the number that actually made it to the camps?

it was not because they were treated badly, it was because their health was already so poor that not even normal nourishment would help some of them survive.

Sorry but his is utter crap.. USSR didnt sign the Geneva convention.. why?

GER soldiers who surrendered was often killed (nice way to treat POW's).
Its documented that GER soldiers who advanced found in many occations soldiers mutulated (genitalias and other body parts cutt off) and killed.

Do you have any number on how many (%) of the total captured GER soldiers that actually returned to GER after the war?

Its nice to hear that Paulus was treated nice, but he was a general so not the typical GER POW. Try to ask some of the others that slaved long into the 1950s.. or that died in captivity.

[ISU-152]

ISU-152, is 91k the figure of how many that surrendered in Stalingrad or the number that actually made it to the camps?

That is the number of actually captured troops.

it was not because they were treated badly, it was because their health was already so poor that not even normal nourishment would help some of them survive.

Sorry but his is utter crap.. USSR didnt sign the Geneva convention.. why?

Great argumentation, typical for a one-eyed alien. As for why USSR did not sign Geneva convention that is because Stalin with his stupidity and paranoia believed that there would be no soviet POWs in future wars and that he considered all soviet POWs to be traitors.

GER soldiers who surrendered was often killed (nice way to treat POW's).
Its documented that GER soldiers who advanced found in many occations soldiers mutulated (genitalias and other body parts cutt off) and killed.

These were occasional cases inflated by Goebells propaganda to prevent Germans from surrendering to the soviet army. However more germans returned from captivity then did soviets in % (because soviet POWs were more numerous).
Bad treatment of POWs is a very controversial subject. If german POWs were treated badly that was the work of isolated individuals and not the state policy. On the contrary the army was encouraged to take as much POWs as possible rather than killing them. On the other side, bad treatment of soviet POWs went as far as OKW and was mandatory.

Do you have any number on how many (%) of the total captured GER soldiers that actually returned to GER after the war?

Unfortunately I don't. I only have the information that the % was bigger than that of soviet POWs.

Its nice to hear that Paulus was treated nice, but he was a general so not the typical GER POW. Try to ask some of the others that slaved long into the 1950s.. or that died in captivity.

It wouldn't be a surprise for you that post-war DDR army consisted at first mainly of those who went through soviet POW camps. If they were treated so badly why didn't they refuse to serve the newly established DDR? And they were not slaving but mainly rebuilding what they have actually destroyed themselves and it is a good thing IMHO. For example, Kyiv which was almost destroyed by german occupation has been rebuilt by german POWS in 1945-49.
Slaving would be when civil population from Soviet Union was transferred to Germany to slave there on factories and workshops. My grandma managed to escape that fate.

[wotan]

ISU, one eye is better than no eyes at all


Stalin didnt sign the treaty because he didnt belive in treating POWs humane. The geneva convention doesnt regard how your own troops are being treated but how you treat the POWs u capture. So even if he didnt belive there would be russian POWs in the future this would never be an argument.

Stalin WANTED a bloody and dirty war straight from the beginning because he knew that this would make the struggelen into something more than Nazis vs Commis. Sovjets fought as hard as they did not because they fought for the party but because they fought for mother russia. Stalins plan worked just fine, and he got what he wanted. So straight from the beginning USSR tried to provoke GER retaliations, this btw is discussed in another tread in this forum.

These were occasional cases inflated by Goebells propaganda to prevent Germans from surrendering to the soviet army

Argh.. Goebbels propaganda was nothing compared to the Party when it comes to not telling the truth.

Documentation AFTER the war has confirmed the fact that USSR troops killed POWs on a regular basis. Even that this was a concius and planned activity right from the beginning. As said earlier, Stalin wanted this to be as bloody and inhumane as possible.

Unfortunately I don't. I only have the information that the % was bigger than that of soviet POWs

I think this was discussed earlier in another thread.. If I remember correct 57% of USSR POWs died in captivity. Other allied soldiers were around 2-3%. This was also a result from the fact that since USSR hadnt signed the geneva convention GER could treat the POWs accordingly. Not that I personally defend this.

A slave is someone forced to labor without freedom or compensation. GER POWs worked as slaves in USSR long after the war.

And would it be a suprise to you to know that many thousands of east-germans was taken prisoners AFTER the war to slave in the USSR? These ppl were totally innocent.

What the slaves are rebuilding is really not the issue.. Should USSR POWs help out in rebuilding Berlin after the war? And they were cept much longer than 49.. well into the 50s..[/quote]

[LeoAU]

These were occasional cases inflated by Goebells propaganda to prevent Germans from surrendering to the soviet army

Argh.. Goebbels propaganda was nothing compared to the Party when it comes to not telling the truth.

It doesn't change the fact those 'WERE OCCASIONAL cases inflated by Goebells propaganda'.

Documentation AFTER the war has confirmed the fact that USSR troops killed POWs on a regular basis.

Maybe it was more 'human' than to starve and work them to death?

...Even that this was a concius and planned activity right from the beginning.

A planned activity? Could you show us some military orders, official documents which order to kill POWs? Actually Stalin needed those POWs for propaganda purposes. Also, in the initial period, when Soviets retreated, I do believe more POWs were killed, simply because they couldn't be taken with retreating units.

Unfortunately I don't. I only have the information that the % was bigger than that of soviet POWs

I think this was discussed earlier in another thread.. If I remember correct 57% of USSR POWs died in captivity. Other allied soldiers were around 2-3%. This was also a result from the fact that since USSR hadnt signed the geneva convention GER could treat the POWs accordingly..

Would signed Geneva convention have changed the 'fact' that Slavs were untermenschen?
Have you heard anything about total war, superhuman vs subhuman etc?? So, with the signed convention, some 3mln Soviet prisoners would be treated nicely, but those 15 or so mln civilians in occupied territories died/killed/worked to death any way???

A slave is someone forced to labor without freedom or compensation. GER POWs worked as slaves in USSR long after the war.

A form of reparation maybe?