Erie/Ireland invaded by Germany 1940

[von Rundstedt]

Or at best Hitler could just ignore the Eire Republic all together just after he had secured Northern Ireland, sorta like a Irish Hadrians Wall.

[phylo_roadking]

Can't do. For THEN he puts himself in the position the British were in in 1940-41....with Eire sitting as a "back door" into the United Kingdom. If the British in Plan W thought 50,000 British troops were enough to both brush aside Irish opposition AND defeat the germans....then it would still be enough if they were Dominion troops sea-landed in Eire and going in the OTHER direction. That "7-8 days' " estimation for Irish resistance in the field is against ANY invader...

Whether or not the Dominions and Empire WOULD do it, doesn't really matter; Hitler HAS to plan as if they would, just as the British historically had to plan for the germans doing it. To do anything else - like do nothing - to secure his rear isn't an option.

It doesn't matter WHO first invades ireland from whatever direction - once it starts Eire is doomed to several back-and-forth military campaigns like North Africa - either FIRST the Germans and THEN the British back at them....or vice versa. The Irish will fight...once...in the field, but then there's no real Defence Forces to handle the second backswing. And if they in the end actually DID follow De Valera's intentions and fight BOTH invaders...

No matter what - Ireland isn't an open sandy desert; a LOT of civilians would die, and the country would be destroyed by modern warfare. But that was never a consideration for De Valera, one of whose favourite quotes was Jefferson's "The Tree of Liberty must be watered, from time to time, with the blood of Patriots and Tyrants"...

[von Rundstedt]

Can't do. For THEN he puts himself in the position the British were in in 1940-41....with Eire sitting as a "back door" into the United Kingdom. If the British in Plan W thought 50,000 British troops were enough to both brush aside Irish opposition AND defeat the germans....then it would still be enough if they were Dominion troops sea-landed in Eire and going in the OTHER direction. That "7-8 days' " estimation for Irish resistance in the field is against ANY invader...

Whether or not the Dominions and Empire WOULD do it, doesn't really matter; Hitler HAS to plan as if they would, just as the British historically had to plan for the germans doing it. To do anything else - like do nothing - to secure his rear isn't an option.

It doesn't matter WHO first invades ireland from whatever direction - once it starts Eire is doomed to several back-and-forth military campaigns like North Africa - either FIRST the Germans and THEN the British back at them....or vice versa. The Irish will fight...once...in the field, but then there's no real Defence Forces to handle the second backswing. And if they in the end actually DID follow De Valera's intentions and fight BOTH invaders...

No matter what - Ireland isn't an open sandy desert; a LOT of civilians would die, and the country would be destroyed by modern warfare. But that was never a consideration for De Valera, one of whose favourite quotes was Jefferson's "The Tree of Liberty must be watered, from time to time, with the blood of Patriots and Tyrants"...

Assuming for the moment that you are correct and at first Britain has no choice but to invade Eire Republic that certainly would bring the Eire Republic into German hands. Plan W sounds like pie in the sky stuff, if this thread were to be followed the entire Imperial British Army has just been defeated on home soil (meaning that England, Scotland and Wales are occupied), the RAF has been destroyed and the Royal Navy in tatters, the Royal Family and the British Government is now in exile in Canada (temporarily). German Government would have as part of the unconditional surrender treaty the territory of Northern Ireland. Again meaning that German troops would be garrisoned in Northern Ireland.

But if we follow your answer, then the British would have invaded Eire Republic and so here come the old saying "The enemy of my enemy is my friend", So what could Hitler do, offer any assistance Eire Republic wanted to eliminate the British but at a price, if i were Hitler then the price is once and for all Eire Republic's rennouncing of her Neutrality status, she must sign the Tripartite Treaty, and after the elimination of British forces allow several garrisons of German troops. Or Hitler could wait and watch the Irish and British fight themselves to a standstill and then go in and eliminat both at his leasure. The Eire Republic then becomes a fully occupied German Puppet State.

And finally you fail to appreciate the SS and SD and Gestapo and what they are capable my friend, De valera can conduct his Guerilla war but at what cost to the civillian population, and i can bet the first casualties would be the entire extended family of De Valera, the SS, SD and Gestapo would round up as many of his family and then deliver an ultimatum surrender or have your entire family executedt in public in down town Dublin, Grand parents, parents, aunts, uncle, cousins, children, neices, nephews and the like sytematiclly executed one by one, and the method hanging and their bodies left to rot on the noose, and this would also be a message to all who would give aid and support to any guerilla cell. As i have said before the tens of Germans killed would be paid back by the tens of thousands killed as retribution.

v.R.

[phylo_roadking]

The only pie-in-the-sky here is sadly in your last post.

Britain has no choice but to invade Eire Republic that certainly would bring the Eire Republic into German hands

De Valera thought different from Churchill - the enemy of my enemy is NOT my friend if he's on Irish soil too - he's just ANOTHER enemy. De Valera's stated intention was to have the Irish Defence Forces resist ANY invader...AND NOT ASK FOR HELP. I.E. if the Germans had invaded as historically planned - it was NOT his intention to ask for British help. Plan W was drawn up to ignore De Valera's wishes and advance to meet the Germans in Ireland ANYWAY. If british and Dominion forces invaded Eire as a "back door"...The Germans IF they were in Northern Ireland would have to invade Ireland ALSO to meet them. Having hostile British forces on irisih soil would NOT "bring" Eire into German hands - they would have to TAKE it.

the RAF has been destroyed and the Royal Navy in tatters

Exactly WHO is going to render the RN in tatters??? Quite the reverse. The Royal navy is likely to be almost intact, the Germans had VERY little in the way of assets to "screen" the North Sea as planned during Sealion.

As for the RAF...perhaps you'd better look at what was said earlier AND the thread about withdrawing French air assets from France into North Africa in June 1940...

part of the unconditional surrender treaty

What unconditional surrender treaty? You obviously know NOTHING about the BRITISH government's expressed intentions in the event of invasion.

So what could Hitler do, offer any assistance Eire Republic wanted to eliminate the British but at a price,

And De Valera would tell him to bog off. For he said EXACTLY the same to Churchill several times through 1940 and 1941...when he was asked for a LOT less, only the use of the three "Treaty Ports" for the duration.

Or Hitler could wait and watch the Irish and British fight themselves to a standstill

Not a standstill LMAO As said, the capability of the Irish Defence Forces to resist ANY invasion by either British or germans was reckoned at 7-8 days, and a full fortnight to physically reach every part of the island.

And finally you fail to appreciate the SS and SD and Gestapo and what they are capable my friend, De valera can conduct his Guerilla war but at what cost to the civillian population, and i can bet the first casualties would be the entire extended family of De Valera, the SS, SD and Gestapo would round up as many of his family and then deliver an ultimatum surrender or have your entire family executedt in public in down town Dublin, Grand parents, parents, aunts, uncle, cousins, children, neices, nephews and the like sytematiclly executed one by one, and the method hanging and their bodies left to rot on the noose, and this would also be a message to all who would give aid and support to any guerilla cell. As i have said before the tens of Germans killed would be paid back by the tens of thousands killed as retribution

You really know nothing about Irish history, do you? ALL this and MORE was done repetitively over the centuries and right into the modern era by the British in Ireland at various times...the Irish THRIVE on martyrs. They are worse than 1st century CE Christians.

There are recognized historical examples and precedents for ALL of the points above, and against almost ALL you have said. You seem to know NOTHING about Irish history, Anglo-Irish politics during "The Emergency", Irish Neutrality, how De Valera thought - and there's PLENTY of it recorded out there - or taken aboard ANY of the Sealion threads here on AHF.

[LWD]

Possibly. But you are now assuming German bases in Northern Ireland and that they can commit that much force against Ireland. The initial post doesn't require this by any means and much depends on what else is on Germany's plate.

At the time i would assume that Hitler has Operation Barbarossa on the back burner 1942 or either procedes with it in 1941, either way it is inconsequencial to this thread.

Why? It wasn't part of the for this what if. Why would Hitler abandon his primary goal of "Lebensraum" in the East just to muck with Ireland? It is very consequential to this thread becuase if it's ongoing he has a rather more limited force available.

I would assume German forces would be in occupation of Northern Ireland as it would included in any Unconditional Surrender Treaty the British Government and the German Government,

Nothing in the start of this thread said anything about unconditional surrender. Even if there was why would the Germans want to occupy Northern Ireland? They didn't occupy all of France after all.

i can assure you that if it came to conflict the Irish would not stand a chance against the Germans

Assure all you want. But without details of what's happening you may or may not be correct. For instance what if the US agrees to help defend Irealnd and moves signficant forces there prior to the German invasion? Not called for in the orignal what if but not contradicted either.

or pray tell why the Irish would be different, explain to me why the Germans could defeat the Poles, Danes, Dutch, Belgians, Norwegians, French, Brits and not have a hope in hell in defeating the Irish. Remember this thread assumes that the RAF, Imperial Army and Royal Navy have been defeated, what resources do the Irish have to defeat the Germans that all the rest did not have...

I never said they couldn't defeat the Irish I said this is a poorly defined what if. There's not even a clear POD and only the vague wording of a British defeat and a German invasion. We have no idea what resources are available for either the Germans or the Irish.

[phylo_roadking]

Actually - by the time the British were defeated in mainland Britain...I'd asy the Irish would be FAR better off militarily than they ever were historically. ANY conquest of britain is going to be slow and hard-fought all the way - allowing the British time to channel war materiel and munitions to the Irish with the simple intention of KEEPING Ireland inviolate. At any one time during those years there was a considerable amount of American-supplied war materiel en route to the UK - imagine for instance how far the Irish Defence Forces would be bolstered by, say, the diversion to their ports of just ONE Tiger-style convoy? After all - war materiel already bought and paid for by various neutral countries - Norway, Holland, France etc. - was diverted to the UK in 1940 after they were occupied. Absolutely NOTHING is stopping the exiled British government - OR the Americans - doing the same and sending materiel en route straight to Ireland....

As for the suggestion that the Americans be invited in - as said, this was one of the options suggested to De Valera, and various wartime polls indicated that a majority of Irish people would have agreed with this action....

With ONE major side-effect...

On the 7th of Decenber 1941, Ireland instantly - as a result of events on the other side of the world - stops being Neutral and becomes Neutral but Aligned, like Spain or Vichy france but on the Allies' side...and THEN looses its Neutrality on December 10th, 1941, and Hitler suddenly has a HOSTILE American force across the border from Northern Ireland or at best just across the Irish Sea.... NOT one that has to fight its way into Tunisia from Algeria, then onto Sicily, into Italy, and across the Channel into Normandy...the edges of the Greater Reich are going to start being rolled up a lot earlier....

[von Rundstedt]

The only pie-in-the-sky here is sadly in your last post.

Britain has no choice but to invade Eire Republic that certainly would bring the Eire Republic into German hands

De Valera thought different from Churchill - the enemy of my enemy is NOT my friend if he's on Irish soil too - he's just ANOTHER enemy. De Valera's stated intention was to have the Irish Defence Forces resist ANY invader...AND NOT ASK FOR HELP. I.E. if the Germans had invaded as historically planned - it was NOT his intention to ask for British help. Plan W was drawn up to ignore De Valera's wishes and advance to meet the Germans in Ireland ANYWAY. If british and Dominion forces invaded Eire as a "back door"...The Germans IF they were in Northern Ireland would have to invade Ireland ALSO to meet them. Having hostile British forces on irisih soil would NOT "bring" Eire into German hands - they would have to TAKE it.

the RAF has been destroyed and the Royal Navy in tatters

Exactly WHO is going to render the RN in tatters??? Quite the reverse. The Royal navy is likely to be almost intact, the Germans had VERY little in the way of assets to "screen" the North Sea as planned during Sealion.

As for the RAF...perhaps you'd better look at what was said earlier AND the thread about withdrawing French air assets from France into North Africa in June 1940...

part of the unconditional surrender treaty

What unconditional surrender treaty? You obviously know NOTHING about the BRITISH government's expressed intentions in the event of invasion.

So what could Hitler do, offer any assistance Eire Republic wanted to eliminate the British but at a price,

And De Valera would tell him to bog off. For he said EXACTLY the same to Churchill several times through 1940 and 1941...when he was asked for a LOT less, only the use of the three "Treaty Ports" for the duration.

Or Hitler could wait and watch the Irish and British fight themselves to a standstill

Not a standstill LMAO As said, the capability of the Irish Defence Forces to resist ANY invasion by either British or germans was reckoned at 7-8 days, and a full fortnight to physically reach every part of the island.

And finally you fail to appreciate the SS and SD and Gestapo and what they are capable my friend, De valera can conduct his Guerilla war but at what cost to the civillian population, and i can bet the first casualties would be the entire extended family of De Valera, the SS, SD and Gestapo would round up as many of his family and then deliver an ultimatum surrender or have your entire family executedt in public in down town Dublin, Grand parents, parents, aunts, uncle, cousins, children, neices, nephews and the like sytematiclly executed one by one, and the method hanging and their bodies left to rot on the noose, and this would also be a message to all who would give aid and support to any guerilla cell. As i have said before the tens of Germans killed would be paid back by the tens of thousands killed as retribution

You really know nothing about Irish history, do you? ALL this and MORE was done repetitively over the centuries and right into the modern era by the British in Ireland at various times...the Irish THRIVE on martyrs. They are worse than 1st century CE Christians.

There are recognized historical examples and precedents for ALL of the points above, and against almost ALL you have said. You seem to know NOTHING about Irish history, Anglo-Irish politics during "The Emergency", Irish Neutrality, how De Valera thought - and there's PLENTY of it recorded out there - or taken aboard ANY of the Sealion threads here on AHF.

So Britain invades Eire Republic (i'll grant you that they have no choice) and Irish troops are fighting the British and are you seriously saying that if the German Government offers to aid the Irish in their fight against the British invasion the Irish are going to reject any help that is beyond belief. Are you seriously suggesting De Valera would rather face a military defeat to spite himself and all his supporters rather than ask for help, that makes no sense at all.

Ok my comment about the RN in tatters is rather topical, as the original thread does say Britain has fallen and so that means that the Royal Navy would have to been defeated as it could not prevent a seaborne invasion, meaning that the Kriegsmarine and the Luftwaffe defeated the RN Home Fleet. How this would be achieved ask the original poster that question, i dare you to send him a PM and query him.

The RAF would if by a historic German invasion would mean the destruction of the RAF on home soil, It would naturally carry on in Canada, but the RAF in Britain and Northern Ireland would have been eliminated, or as many assets been removed, either shipped out or flown out, either way the RAF in Britain no longer exists.

Hitler would never entertain an armistice, a full unconditional surrender would be the only option the the Reichstag, nothing more or less, and if history is anything to go by many historians agree the British Empire would naturally given German protection. I don't give a damn about what the British Government had intended, things change in the course of war, a German invasion changes everything, you fail to realise this by adhearing to the what is and not what if.

De Valera tells the Germans to bogg off as you say, his fellow Irish are being killed by British forces and he tells the Germans who have just defeated the British on British home soils, "Thanks but no thanks" get real.

You don't understand German history especially the SS, SD and the Gestapo, what the British ever did to the Irish was childs play, the severe brutallity that the Germans could and would inflict onto the Irish population in retribution to the killing of their own, British forces as far as i know never resorted to the elimination of entire towns and villages, the SS, SD and the Gestapo did exactly that, and loved doing it.

v.R.

[von Rundstedt]

Possibly. But you are now assuming German bases in Northern Ireland and that they can commit that much force against Ireland. The initial post doesn't require this by any means and much depends on what else is on Germany's plate.

At the time i would assume that Hitler has Operation Barbarossa on the back burner 1942 or either procedes with it in 1941, either way it is inconsequencial to this thread.

Why? It wasn't part of the for this what if. Why would Hitler abandon his primary goal of "Lebensraum" in the East just to muck with Ireland? It is very consequential to this thread becuase if it's ongoing he has a rather more limited force available.

I would assume German forces would be in occupation of Northern Ireland as it would included in any Unconditional Surrender Treaty the British Government and the German Government,

Nothing in the start of this thread said anything about unconditional surrender. Even if there was why would the Germans want to occupy Northern Ireland? They didn't occupy all of France after all.

i can assure you that if it came to conflict the Irish would not stand a chance against the Germans

Assure all you want. But without details of what's happening you may or may not be correct. For instance what if the US agrees to help defend Irealnd and moves signficant forces there prior to the German invasion? Not called for in the orignal what if but not contradicted either.

or pray tell why the Irish would be different, explain to me why the Germans could defeat the Poles, Danes, Dutch, Belgians, Norwegians, French, Brits and not have a hope in hell in defeating the Irish. Remember this thread assumes that the RAF, Imperial Army and Royal Navy have been defeated, what resources do the Irish have to defeat the Germans that all the rest did not have...

I never said they couldn't defeat the Irish I said this is a poorly defined what if. There's not even a clear POD and only the vague wording of a British defeat and a German invasion. We have no idea what resources are available for either the Germans or the Irish.

I have read that if Hitler had decided once and for all that Britain was to be his main target he would either postpone Barbarossa or cancel it, what he would do is for better left for a different thread, but Hitler can not conduct Seelowe and Barbarossa so close to each other, Hitlers forces needed time to recover after Seelowe. And i believe that Barbarossa would be conducted in 1942, that is my opinion and i'll be damned if you don't like it.

The thead never ruled out an unconditional surrender either did it. Also yes the US Government can move in and defend Ireland but i ask you why in this context the US Government would be willing to send troops to Ireland to defend it but not do the same for Britian when Churchill pleaded with the American Government to send force but said NO, i just don't buy this at all, you mean that the US would be prepared to allow German forces to invade Britian and not Ireland. Also would the US Government have to contravene it's Neutrality Act.

You ask why would Germany want Northern Ireland, for a start it has the one of the best slipways in Britain and strategically it is vital for stepping off into Ireland.

And lastly, if you are so upset by the original thread question then why are you taking it out on me, all i have done is to answer it the best way i can, but you obviously don't like me for whatever reason, and personally i don't give a damn, you have alway historically attacked me after i have posted any kind of response, if you dont like the thread then do as i have suggested to Phylo-Roadking, send the originator of the thread a PM asking him all your queries, but haven't got the guts.

v.R.

[phylo_roadking]

Are you seriously suggesting De Valera would rather face a military defeat to spite himself and all his supporters rather than ask for help, that makes no sense at all.

Suprisingly enough - that was INDEED De Valera's historically-stated intention.

i dare you to send him a PM and query him

Pardon me?

As I was about to say - the plan was for the RN's "small ships" destroyers, naval auxiliaries etc. from the South Coast naval ports to enter the Channel to attack the invasion fleet - while the Home Fleet from Scapa Flow would have to clear the KM blocking force in the North Sea before entering the Channel and being able to bombard the invading forces from the sea. Two separate actions, ONE of which will have failed if the Germans conquer Britain and most probably the small ships' action; but given the weakness of the KM surface fleet the Home Fleet will have probably withdrawn in good order.

The RAF would if by a historic German invasion would mean the destruction of the RAF on home soil, It would naturally carry on in Canada, but the RAF in Britain and Northern Ireland would have been eliminated, or as many assets been removed, either shipped out or flown out, either way the RAF in Britain no longer exists.

NOW you're moving the goalposts AND you've forgotten ONE other option, quite a traditional one during WWII by that point - the short-range aircraft could fly to Ireland and allow themselves to be interned. And thus the Irish Air Corps ends up with a large number of modern aircraft - which is actually how it got most of what few it had during the war - rebuilding wrecks or using interned aircraft LOL

Hitler would never entertain an armistice

Oh Please. Operation Sealion, Peter Fleming - ALL of Chapter Six, "The Mirages in Hitler's Mind". All I can say to your statement is - you are entirely wrong, as proven by historical events. At every single milepost and decision point during the late Spring and Summer of 1940 he offered olive branches via every channel he could. It's the major reason why the initial orders for the invasion were issued so far into July instead of IMMEDIATELY after the Armistice with France in the middle of June.

De Valera tells the Germans to bogg off as you say, his fellow Irish are being killed by British forces and he tells the Germans who have just defeated the British on British home soils, "Thanks but no thanks"

Time for you to go and do that studying I recommended, as you apparently haven't. He stated openly and publically that - for example - if Germany had invaded he would not only NOT ask the British just over the Border, and who were supported during the war in their opposition to Nazi Germany by 65% of the population, for their aid - but actually tell the Irish Defence Forces to turn round and start fighting BOTH invaders at once. With 8500 men...De Valera had a very un-Churchill way of not theatrically exaggerating, and doing EXACTLY what he said he would.

British forces as far as i know never resorted to the elimination of entire towns and villages

Have you ANY idea how many times they did that??? I'm not talking in the 20th century, I'm talking ALL through the centuries of Irish resistance at various times to British rule; on MANY occasions the British visited death and destruction on Holocaust-level percentages of the Irish population. And none of it prevented the Irish resisting. The SS/SD/Gestapo were rank amateurs compared to how the British behaved on numerous occasions in the past.

but Hitler can not conduct Seelowe and Barbarossa so close to each other, Hitlers forces needed time to recover after Seelowe.

Nor can he contemplate another large-scale military operation in Ireland aso soon after France, Sealion, and the British mainland campaign. The longer he delayed, the more the US and the British government-in-exile would pour aid into Neutral Ireland.

why in this context the US Government would be willing to send troops to Ireland to defend it but not do the same for Britian when Churchill pleaded with the American Government to send force but said NO

Simple. Britain was a combatant, Ireland is an Unaligned Neutral. Do you know, for instance, on what date the US agreed to take over the occupation of Iceland from Britain?

it has the one of the best slipways in Britain

It had a remarkably average shipyard compared to Clydeside, Newcastle-Upon-Tyne, Barrow, and the Royal Navy's own yards at Chatham and Devonport.

all i have done is to answer it the best way i can,

...without going away and checking out anything you've been told, just dismissing it offhand as nonsense. Unfortuantely as I stated before there are historical examples in the Anglo-Irish political/economic/military environment of ALL the things you've been told.

[von Rundstedt]

And phylo

To your arrogance at not acknowledging the original thread that Britain has fallen as per original question and all the POD's that goes with that, you still adhere to the what is, if this thread as you obviously can't stick to is to be followed many situations have occured.

1, That the Royal Navy Home Fleet failed to prevent an invasion, deal with it.

2, That the Royal Air Force was defeated on home soil, deal with it.

3, That the Imperial Army and the allied troops stationed in Britain were defeated on British home soil, deal with it.

You say the SS, SD and Gestapo were rank amateurs, tell that to the 6 million jews killed in the holocaust, or are suffering from selective memory loss.

Yes i can agree that the RAF could simply fly their aircraft into the Eire Republic to be interned as you suggest but that also means that the Irish have to intern those pilots as well, i have no qualms about that, but then we have the situation of does the Irish Air Force have the pilots and can they be trained in short time to face the Luftwaffe that has just beaten the RAF on home soil, also how many aircraft are you saying would eventually be interned. Oh i haven't moved the goalposts you just fail to see the consequences of the original question of a fallen Britain, something you can't get your head around.

Ok so i'll meet you half way in that Hitler does agree to an armistice, what would be the term of an armistice, German troops would have to maintained in Britain as an occupational force, Sir Winston Churhill and his Government would certainly have fled and left a caretaker Prime Minister and Government to facillitate an armistice, any armistice agreement would mean that the RAF, Imperial Army and RN would certainly be radically reduced, Germany would certainly treat Britain differently than Vichy France. I'll put the ball in your court and tell me what would the terms of the armistice be and can you refer me to the contents of the actual terms of the armistice that Germany would impose on Britain were it beaten.

You say Germany could not launch an invasion so soon after beating Britain, says who, you, providence of arrogance i suppose, i wouild say the Germans would begin an invasion of Ireland within a week of defeating Britain, striking while the iron was scortching hot.

Tell me when was the last time the British Army wiped out an entire town, what date, where and when, what were the circumstances, educate me please, i'd like to know.

Your last comment made me laugh, you having a go at me for not checking anything i have been told, providence of arrogance i suppose, and yet you can't even follow the simple premise of a defeated Britain, again deal with it.

v.R.

[phylo_roadking]

I love it when you rejig your poisition, twisting in the wind to every factual point put to you.

That the Royal Navy Home Fleet failed to prevent an invasion, deal with it.

YOU didn't say "failed to prevent" remember? Your words were "the Royal Navy in tatters"

That the Royal Air Force was defeated on home soil, deal with it

YOU didn't say "defeated on home soil" Your words were "the RAF has been destroyed"

That the Imperial Army and the allied troops stationed in Britain were defeated on British home soil, deal with it

Did I contradict that ANYWHERE? I've discussed probable events in Ireland BOTH as a result of a German invasion BEFORE a British defeat AND after one. If you think I haven't taken it on board your eyes are letting you down.

You say the SS, SD and Gestapo were rank amateurs, tell that to the 6 million jews killed in the holocaust, or are suffering from selective memory loss.

More apt to the discussion here are their ways of dealing with internal security and partisan activity - at which they couldn't actually match the British for historical brutality. BUT I said "Holocaust-level percentage of the Irish population." Go and do your research, you're in for a shock.

then we have the situation of does the Irish Air Force have the pilots and can they be trained in short time to face the Luftwaffe that has just beaten the RAF on home soil,

The Irish Air Corps has always had a pilot cadre MUCH larger than the number of modern aircraft they had to fly - particularly in WWII.

can they be trained in short time to face the Luftwaffe that has just beaten the RAF on home soil,

A Luftwaffe that - if the BOB is a suitable yardstick - will have been decimated by the RAF on an approx. 3 for 2 basis in the process of eventually defeating said RAF on home soil.

any armistice agreement would mean that the RAF, Imperial Army and RN would certainly be radically reduced

You are quite right that "Germany would certainly treat Britain differently than Vichy France" Go and read Fleming, that will answer your question far better than me. Here's a hint - Hitler WANTED the British to retain the RN...

Tell me when was the last time the British Army wiped out an entire town, what date, where and when, what were the circumstances, educate me please, i'd like to know.

I presume you mean Ireland?

You say Germany could not launch an invasion so soon after beating Britain, says who, you, providence of arrogance i suppose, i wouild say the Germans would begin an invasion of Ireland within a week of defeating Britain, striking while the iron was scortching hot.

THIS is so patently ridiculous that it doesn't even bear discussing. But just for you...and briefly...go to ANY of the published books on Sealion. How are the Germans actually going to GET to Ireland? Sealion will have resulted in the destruction of a significant part of the European coastal and riverine tranpsort fleet already; the German economy and that of the rest of Western Europe was beginning to show significant effects in 1940 from the amount of river transport capacity that was diverted for months at a time...and of which a significant percentage was destroyed by Bomber Command in French and Belgian coastal ports in 1940 - WITHOUT even factoring in the damage that would be done in Sealion. Talking of months - compare any Ireland operation with the months it took to just assemble and convert transport for Sealion. But of course you'll already be aware of that by now having read all the Sealion threads and read Fleming, Kieser etc.. Also, factor in that the LW transport fleet was decimated in Holland and losses in any aerial operations the reduction of Britain would require.

What units are going to be useable for an operation in Ireland a WEEK after fighting the length of Britain??? And just weeks after the invasion of France? Do you know anything about British anti-invasion plans?

you can't even follow the simple premise of a defeated Britain

I've dealt with it for the last two and a half out of four pages. You haven't dealt with ANY historical reality that happens to contradict what you think.

[phylo_roadking]

Pursuivant to the question of American volunteers...I wonder how many people are aware of the existence of the 1st American Motorised Squadron of the Home Guard, formed in London in 1940 by Charles Sweeney who then went on to form the Eagle Squadrons of the RAF...despite the vociferous opposition of Joe Kennedy - as usual LOL. Commanded by General Wade H. Hughes (ret.), they wore British Home Guard battledress, with a red eagle's wing badge, supplied their own private vehicles for the use of the unit - and bought Thompsons privately from the US! They were per head the best-armed Home Guard unit in the organisation There were 75 men in the unit through the summer of 1940, and during the 1940-44 active service of the Home Guard some 128 American citizens served in its ranks. AFAIK they were NOT exempt to swearing the same "King and Country" oath as the rest of the domestic Home Guard volunteers...

[Roddoss72]

Erie/Ireland invaded by Germany after Great Britian has fallen:
1) Would Dev Valera have continued to act as a Leader under occupation?
2) Would "Neutralty" have still been inforced? {Such as describing a man with a Irish surname lost on HMS Hood as death due to a boating accident!!}
3) Would the Irish Army under leaders like the "Boy Colonel" Michael Joe Costello could have had to wage a guerrilla battle against the Germans? How long would they have lasted?
4) Would Irish-Americans have volunteered to help defend Erie from the Germans?

I thought that everyone should look at the question been asked and i have come to some conclusions.

The main question is flawed it does not indicate whether the Eire Republic is forced into Unconditional Surrender or an Armistice.

I'll try to answer these questions posed.

1, If the Eire Republic was indeed invaded by German troops and she was defeated and forced into signing an Unconditional Surrender Treaty then Eamon de Valera would not continue as leader, he would have been executed. If the Eire Republic had after the German Invasion had signed a Armistice then most probably De Valera might have continued as leader. But one thing strikes me and that while De Valera might still be in power it does no stop him from underminig the Germans with secret partisan style cells.

2, Hard to say, but i would take a guess and say Hitler would most likey try to get Free Irish Volunteers to serve in the Waffen SS like other occupied nations, while technically maintianing Irish Neutrality. And in due course some would volunteer, how many i don't know.

3, Yes, i can't rule that out, how long is another serious question, it all depends on how much retribution the Irish population are willing to suffer from the authorities. Would the population turn on those freedom fighters, understanding some Irish history, i doubt it, they love martyrdom.

4, Yes, no doubt about it, there would be a call for Irish Americans to volunteer, but it is easier to call for volunteers and train them, it is another to launch a counter invasion from America or Iceland. And i bet that the US Government would find some way around their Neutrality Act to allow the build up of this private army.

After reading several posting on this thread many should pull their heads in especially von Rundstedt and Phylo-Roadking, you two are acting like village idiots, your continued sniping at one another is tiresome.

[phylo_roadking]

Okay...

First of all - there was no nation called the Eire Republic. It was Ireland/"Eire" or the "Irish Free State" - Eire/Ireland didn't become the "Republic of Ireland" until 1949; until that point it wasn't a Republic, not until the functions previously given to the Governor-General acting on the behalf of the King of England were given instead to the President of Ireland by the 21st December 1948 Republic of Ireland Act. It may look like a trivial point, but remember through the Irish Civil War people killed each other over the nature of the links between Eire and Great Britain...

If the Eire Republic was indeed invaded by German troops and she was defeated and forced into signing an Unconditional Surrender Treaty then Eamon de Valera would not continue as leader, he would have been executed

Unfortunately you can't say that - as none of us know WHAT the Germans would do. Look for example at Leopold of Belgium...or Petain. There are examples for and against being able to say he wouldn't remain as Head of State or even be executed. As far as can be ascertained from Hitler's pronouncements on Ireland he respected De Valera's stance on neutrality...which was as stringently NOT pro-Allies as it wasn't pro-Axis...

...although he occasionally "jogged the Taoiseach's elbow" after particularly anti-Axis speeches - usually by a stick of bombs somewhere, purely by accident of course...

it does no stop him from underminig the Germans with secret partisan style cells.

THAT would most likely have been the understatement of the century...

Hard to say, but i would take a guess and say Hitler would most likey try to get Free Irish Volunteers to serve in the Waffen SS like other occupied nations, while technically maintianing Irish Neutrality.

In THAT case - after an invasion - we're not talking about Irish Neutrality as it was before, but "Neutral but Aligned" like Spain or Vichy France. And the Allies (that remained) and the US after Pearl Harbour probably wouldn't regard it as Neutral. "Neutral but Aligned" is the sort of circumstance under which you enter a naval port like Mers-el-Kebir and open fire

but it is easier to call for volunteers and train them, it is another to launch a counter invasion from America or Iceland

The second part of that equation depends on

1/ the armed forces Germany leaves as a garrison in Ireland after the invasion or whatever,
2/ how events in Russia progress ,
3/ whether Hitler is stupid enough to declare war on the US on 10th December 1941 again.

Depending on THOSE, a Torch-style invasion is of course possible straight from the US...don't forget, the US contingent in the three Torch landings came to - what, around 55,000 men? Amazingly, almost the same as the Germans planned on for Fall Grun, and the British for Plan W!!!

And I think there would be more than enough Irish-American volunteers; remember the tens of thousands of volunteers the Union was able to muster in specifically-Irish regiments in the American Civil War.

And i bet that the US Government would find some way around their Neutrality Act

I don't think they need to do anything except extend their declared sphere of strategic interest to cover ireland/Eire on the day hostilities on the British mainland cease. This would allow them to send "Neutral" American forces to assist Ireland, they would start arriving before the Germans could even DECIDE what to do about Ireland! Remember, the US Navy established its first European theatre base only EIGHT AND A HALF WEEKS after Pearl Harbour...and I can see Churchill suggesting this particular expansion of America's security sphere during the fighting, to allow the British to withdraw forces from Northern Ireland to the mainland. The most practical suggestion of all would be to make the US wholly responsible for the security of Northern Ireland, just as with Iceland in July 1941, when the British forces there were needed in the desert.

P.S. it might be worthwhile you checking out WHERE that first US Naval base in Europe in 1942 actually was...

[phylo_roadking]

Nearly forgot...

...how long is another serious question, it all depends on how much retribution the Irish population are willing to suffer from the authorities. Would the population turn on those freedom fighters, understanding some Irish history, i doubt it, they love martyrdom

Well - resistance to "English" rule ended in 1921...and began in 1177 I think that means it would stand a good chance of outlasting the Thousand-Year Reich