OK, this might seem a bit silly, but there's worse scenarios getting around on this board.
Suppose the Soviet Union was where America is and America is where the Soviet Union was.
When Hitler launched operatrion Barboraossa he was invading America, not the Russians. How would the war have turned out then?
I reckon the Germans would have been in Moscow (or would it be Washington?) by September, and the Americans would have collapsed by November. Then Germany would win.
Crazy I know.
Conquest of Washington
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davethelight
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well, the sherman tanks didnt say much for us...
would america have the same cold winters as russia? or would the temperature be the same as in the united states (if everything else were reversed too, taking out certain factor may not give rise to certain innovations which one side had and the other did not, otherwise.)
would america have the same cold winters as russia? or would the temperature be the same as in the united states (if everything else were reversed too, taking out certain factor may not give rise to certain innovations which one side had and the other did not, otherwise.)
Depends, which side of America is facing Germany?
If the invasion is on the West Coast ... that means the industrial North East and Washington is 3,000 miles away from the invasion area. It should easily survive. If the invasion is on the East Coast ... well ... I'd guess i'd have been learning Germany in grade school.
I don't believe any country, Russia included, would have survived if its largest cities and industrial centers were withing 400 miles of the border - it would have sufferred the same fate as France.
And dno't forget, the US road and rail system is significantly better than in Russia. So German supply problems are lessened ... in other words, the Germans advance further and faster (all thing considered equal).
If the invasion is on the West Coast ... that means the industrial North East and Washington is 3,000 miles away from the invasion area. It should easily survive. If the invasion is on the East Coast ... well ... I'd guess i'd have been learning Germany in grade school.
I don't believe any country, Russia included, would have survived if its largest cities and industrial centers were withing 400 miles of the border - it would have sufferred the same fate as France.
And dno't forget, the US road and rail system is significantly better than in Russia. So German supply problems are lessened ... in other words, the Germans advance further and faster (all thing considered equal).
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davethelight
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Caldric:
I most certainly am saying that in June 1941 America was alot weaker than Russia from an overall military perspective, especially as far as ground forces were concerned, and its air force was alot smaller too, and almost as obsolete.
Everybody in general:
Attacking America, even on the West coast, would, in my opinion, have been a piece of cake for the Wermarcht, Americas Army was only about 200,000 wasn't it? The Germans would have been marching in to totaly undefended country side in some areas I beleive.
The USAAF would have been largely destroyed on the ground, and what aircraft could make into the air would have been swotted out of the sky like flys.
I reckon the whole campaign would, at best, be similar to a scaled up version of the invasion of western Europe, the only difference being the size of the area to conquer.
Let me know if anything I have said is blatantly wrong.
I most certainly am saying that in June 1941 America was alot weaker than Russia from an overall military perspective, especially as far as ground forces were concerned, and its air force was alot smaller too, and almost as obsolete.
Everybody in general:
Attacking America, even on the West coast, would, in my opinion, have been a piece of cake for the Wermarcht, Americas Army was only about 200,000 wasn't it? The Germans would have been marching in to totaly undefended country side in some areas I beleive.
The USAAF would have been largely destroyed on the ground, and what aircraft could make into the air would have been swotted out of the sky like flys.
I reckon the whole campaign would, at best, be similar to a scaled up version of the invasion of western Europe, the only difference being the size of the area to conquer.
Let me know if anything I have said is blatantly wrong.
Heres my thoughts on this one.
Firstly, if America was in the location of where Russia is, then they wouldnt have the smaller size of army mentioned by Davelight. It would be similar in size in both man power and infrastructure as Russia at the time due to the boiling pot type scenario. Only that some weaponary would be below standard such as tanks, some planes etc.
But heres the question, does America make some of the stupid mistakes that Russia made in the first months? Obviously not.
The result would be parallel to a certain point, but an interesting thought though?
Firstly, if America was in the location of where Russia is, then they wouldnt have the smaller size of army mentioned by Davelight. It would be similar in size in both man power and infrastructure as Russia at the time due to the boiling pot type scenario. Only that some weaponary would be below standard such as tanks, some planes etc.
But heres the question, does America make some of the stupid mistakes that Russia made in the first months? Obviously not.
The result would be parallel to a certain point, but an interesting thought though?
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davethelight
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"[quote="Napoli"]Heres my thoughts on this one.
Firstly, if America was in the location of where Russia is, then they wouldnt have the smaller size of army mentioned by Davelight. It would be similar in size in both man power and infrastructure as Russia at the time due to the boiling pot type scenario. Only that some weaponary would be below standard such as tanks, some planes etc."
My scenario supposes that the American population, government, and armed forces etc that existed in reality in 1941 in North America, existed where Russia is, so no huge armys or anything, only what they actually had.
Its a wacked scenario, but, everything about America has to be the same except its geographical location, otherwise we just go back to a quasi Russia, which is not the scenario.
Firstly, if America was in the location of where Russia is, then they wouldnt have the smaller size of army mentioned by Davelight. It would be similar in size in both man power and infrastructure as Russia at the time due to the boiling pot type scenario. Only that some weaponary would be below standard such as tanks, some planes etc."
My scenario supposes that the American population, government, and armed forces etc that existed in reality in 1941 in North America, existed where Russia is, so no huge armys or anything, only what they actually had.
Its a wacked scenario, but, everything about America has to be the same except its geographical location, otherwise we just go back to a quasi Russia, which is not the scenario.
Its unrealistic and unfair to put the US in the middle of Euro-Asia and not allow the US to raise a suitable army. Russia is a nation that has historically faced invasion on many fronts, the US has not truely faced an invasion that has threatened its survival for 200 years.
Besides, I believe the US army was closer to 1 million troops by June 1941, though I don't know that for certain.
Besides, I believe the US army was closer to 1 million troops by June 1941, though I don't know that for certain.
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davethelight
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OK, I just found out that the US army was indeed about 1.5 million men in mid 1941. A mostly new army that was untried and inexperienced.
I still reckon 3 million German troops wouldn't take long to either capture or have this army on the run, either way, it would loose pretty quick.
And yeah, I know its unfair, but aren't wars usually like that to some extent?
I still reckon 3 million German troops wouldn't take long to either capture or have this army on the run, either way, it would loose pretty quick.
And yeah, I know its unfair, but aren't wars usually like that to some extent?
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Javier Acuña
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But, Japan wages war on December 41 against URSS or USA? If it is against URSS, then Pearl Harbor is tottaly destroyed, the URSS fleet at Dec. 41 was not a match for the Japan Imperial Fleet. besides, you have to split the URSS fleet in the Atlantic and the Pacific. So Japan has less problems
If it's against the USA then USA is facing big troubles because Japan will be attacking the West coast right in front of Wakkanai.
URSS in North America? If you say that everything has to be equal, with URSS big army I see them invading Canada or Mexico but not at the same time, one at a time, take for granted that they will also invade Central America.
USA in Europe/Asia? Well, the US Navy has less coast to defend so if the Pacific Fleet is stationed in the Baltic, the the Kriegsmarine is doomed. Imagine the Kriegsmarine fighting Britain and USA's Navies. So I assume that by Jul 42 Hamburg is being bombarded and Bombers based on Carriers on the Baltic are bombing Berlin and bombers based on carriers on the Northern Sea are destroying Germany's factories on the Ruhr Area.
Germany attacking west USA?, well, looking at the map you can see big mountains on that side (I don't have a map on English but here we call the "Montañas Rocosas"). And big mountainous areas advantage defenders so the Heer faces big troubles and gets heavy casualties on the Salt Lake City area. Nevertheless, the West coast is doomed. The War focuses on conquering Texas and its oil. Forth Worth=Stalingrad?
If it's against the USA then USA is facing big troubles because Japan will be attacking the West coast right in front of Wakkanai.
URSS in North America? If you say that everything has to be equal, with URSS big army I see them invading Canada or Mexico but not at the same time, one at a time, take for granted that they will also invade Central America.
USA in Europe/Asia? Well, the US Navy has less coast to defend so if the Pacific Fleet is stationed in the Baltic, the the Kriegsmarine is doomed. Imagine the Kriegsmarine fighting Britain and USA's Navies. So I assume that by Jul 42 Hamburg is being bombarded and Bombers based on Carriers on the Baltic are bombing Berlin and bombers based on carriers on the Northern Sea are destroying Germany's factories on the Ruhr Area.
Germany attacking west USA?, well, looking at the map you can see big mountains on that side (I don't have a map on English but here we call the "Montañas Rocosas"). And big mountainous areas advantage defenders so the Heer faces big troubles and gets heavy casualties on the Salt Lake City area. Nevertheless, the West coast is doomed. The War focuses on conquering Texas and its oil. Forth Worth=Stalingrad?
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Javier Acuña
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Anyway, why would Hitler want to invade USA? Germany declared war on USA because Japan did and that was on Dec 41, on Jun 41 Germany and USA were not at war, and Hitler did not want USA involved in the war.
Besides, what happened with Poland? East Poland is invaded by the USA as well? Once Germany attacks France or Poland it would be idiotic the USA does not call reservist and starts drafting people so the Army should be more than 2,5 million at least.
Besides, what happened with Poland? East Poland is invaded by the USA as well? Once Germany attacks France or Poland it would be idiotic the USA does not call reservist and starts drafting people so the Army should be more than 2,5 million at least.
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davethelight
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They would be no weaker then the Soviets if that was the position they were in. Before 1941 the US did not have the worries of enemies on their borders.davethelight wrote:Caldric:
I most certainly am saying that in June 1941 America was alot weaker than Russia from an overall military perspective, especially as far as ground forces were concerned, and its air force was alot smaller too, and almost as obsolete.