D-Day November 1942

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The_Enigma
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Re: D-Day November 1942

Post by The_Enigma » 01 Sep 2008 22:27

:lol:

Talking of operating LITERALLY out of holes , am sure i have read of an account of before the RAF withdrew from Tobruk they did literally have a hole in the ground where they housed one of the planes when it wasnt i use. 8O

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Re: D-Day November 1942

Post by Roddoss72 » 02 Sep 2008 05:03

Salutations All

Just exactly what does digging holes in North Africa to hide aircraft have to do with US and British landings in Quiberon Bay circa November 1942.

Can all those above come to the reliazation that the Allied landings in France would be slightly different than North Africa again circa November 1942.

There would be no attack on Rommels rear, Rommel would only need to blunt one front not divert troops for two fronts.

There would for the time being no Italian campaign, so i suspect that Italy remains in the war much longer.

There would be no massed diversion of German troops to Italy they would be diverted to France.

And some here believe that the Germans would simply capitulate without any resistance.

Regards

Roddoss72

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RE: D-Day November 1942

Post by Robert Rojas » 02 Sep 2008 09:26

Greetings to both citizen The Enigma and the community as a whole. Well T.E., in reference to your installment of Monday - September 01, 2008 - 12:40pm, it would be fair to say that old Uncle Bob drew his inspiration for a putsch against the continued reign of Adolph Hitler from the REAL LIFE activities of Major General Henning von Tresckow. On March 14, 1943, Major General Henning von Tresckow attempted to engineer the assassination of the all knowing Bohemian Corporal by placing a bomb aboard Der Fuhrer's personal aircraft. As fate and happenstance would have it, the bomb malfunctioned during Adolph Hitler's return flight to East Prussia after a field conference on the Eastern Front. As you may observe, even without the existence of OPERATION SLEDGEHAMMER, the disaffection within the Wehrmacht's officer corps was already manifesting itself. Finally, like yourself, old yours truly is also more than a wee bit annoyed with those historians who belittle the skill and elan of the fighting men of both the British Commonwealth and the United States of America. Such cherry picking characters ought to be reminded now and again about who actually won the war. Well, that's my latest two cents, pence or pfennigs worth on this expansive topic of interest - for now anyway. In anycase, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day over in merry old England. GOD SAVE THE QUEEN - not to mention everybody else.

Best Regards From The Upstart Colonies,
Uncle Bob :idea: :) :wink: 8-)

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Re: D-Day November 1942

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 02 Sep 2008 11:34

phylo_roadking wrote:Re the airfields in Vichy North Africa - Carl, I can certainly see operations to make them unserviceable...but not to use them. That means a THIRD set of airlifts for the LW - Stalingrad, Tunisia....AND locally to keep those fields supplied. The RN, and the RAF from Malta is going to prevent ANY resupply by sea - and the French colonial army is going to be coming down HARD on any force holding them. Better if they were to simply try to take them out of the equation for the duration of the airlift to Rommel...but, after all, this IS north Africa - clear some flat stony ground and you have a replacement airfield for the Desert Air Force...
Actually most of the Axis material sent to Tunisia arrived by sea, mostly via the ports of Tunis and Bizerte. A smaller portion arrived with Rommel, and just about all of that was sent by sea to Tripoli after the Axis retreat from Egypt, post October 1942. The Axis air transport effort got all the publicity but 90+ of the combat units and their supply arrived in Tunisia via Italian cargo ships. From November into march Axis air superiority over the Sicillian/Tunisian straits interfered with Allied interdiction. It was not until the Allies were able to etablish enough air power forward on new built airfields at Tebessa and other locations that the Italian supply effort could be interdicted.

Malta did not have suffcient air or naval units in November 1942 or later to effectively interfere. The Axis were bombing the place in late 1942 and little more than air reconissance and some submarines could operate out of Malta. In simple terms the Royal Navy was not going anywhere close to Sicilly until air superiority was established. They had lost 30+ cargo and war ships in the attempts to supply Malta, including a aircraft carrier, to Axis aircraft and torpedo boats. So the RN did not much try to interdict the Italian sea transport to Tunisia until the USAAF/RAF cleared the sky over the straits.

If the Italian or Germans decide to secure Tunisia in this WI it is unlikely the several German armored, airbourne, and infantry formations sent from France will be available. ie: The Pz Div from France, & airbourne units training there. They are more likely to be retained in France to deal with Sledgehammer. So, that would leave the material for reinforcing the Axis army in Lybia, the Axis airforces present in Italy, the airbourne force that had been waiting to attack Malta, and the Italian formations. All those were items sent to Tunisa to counter Torch. Obviously this will be a much less effective force, but what it can accomplish depends on A. French resistance at the very start. B. what the Alles end to Tunisia to counter this move. In Nov 41 the French garrison in Bizerte quickly surrendered to the German airbourne forces. The Tunis garrison was ordered to 'cooperate' with the Axis but the garrison commander (Barre') instead withdrew to the hills in the Eastern Dorsall and begain fighting the Germans when the British established a supply route to the location in mid November.

Its ironic that the French soldiers inflicted a couple thouand casulaties on the Allied forces in the first week of Torch, but were unable to wound a single German or Italian that week. Had Barre followed instructions and surrendered his Tunis garrison it is likely Nehring would have secured all of Tunisa as far as the Western Dorsal mountain range before the British advance guard arrived. Barre was one of the few French leaders to act in the Allied interest in the opening week of Torch. If the French government, or at least Darlan commits decisively to the Allied cause at the start of this WI, then yes Kesselring would not have the same sucess siezing Tunis & Bizerte. the German airbourne forces landing on the airfields 7-10 November could even be massacred. The trick is the French leaders must act decisively and instantly. I dont know how much actual control Darlan had over the local leaders. A lot of them, like Nogues in Morroco, seem to have been pro Axis. The same applies to the French in Europe for this Sledgehammer What If. Petain and the others must act fast if they are to be of any help to the Allies. If the Germans make the decsion to execute their contingincy plan for securing Vichy France (what was the name of that operation?) Petain & staff cant be standing around discussing options, or trying to secretly negotiate 'details of cooperation' with each side.

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Re: D-Day November 1942

Post by The_Enigma » 02 Sep 2008 13:25

Roddoss72 wrote: There would for the time being no Italian campaign, so i suspect that Italy remains in the war much longer.
There would be no massed diversion of German troops to Italy they would be diverted to France.
And some here believe that the Germans would simply capitulate without any resistance.
Regards

Roddoss72
The British wanted to keep the war in the med, if the war was taken back to France via Sledgehammer that doesnt rule out other operations. If there was enough landing craft etc there is the possability of a landing in Sicily like in real life. Like in real life as well such a landing was the final braking point for the Italians.
Assuming Torch as not gone ahead, there is 3 British Armoured Divisins, 3 British Infantry Division, 3 Indian Infantry Divisions, 1 New Zealand Division all in theater. There is one Aussie and South African division which was withdrawn following the conclusion of the fighting in Tunisia. If the North African campaign was concluded there is the possability of at least 12 divisions to be used for such an operation, along with indy infantry and armour/tank brigades. Landing them would be the problem i would imagine, if Sledgehammer took place.

Cant fully answer your second point, they could have gone anywhere really - Italy, France or back to the USSR.

For the third point, I wouldnt believe for a moment that the Germans would simpley role over, however what we historically know - once ashore the Allied force would be hard to boot out. In Normandy they threw there best (well quite a few of them) at the Anglo-American-Canadians and to be fair they got spanked. To give them credit they held the front closed for a few months but bled themselves white in doing so.

Uncle Bob: That was the plot i was thinking of when i typed my post. If i remember correctly it was disguised as a wine bottle of something and they quickly got it out of there once they realised it hadnt exploded. But did they have a plan of action in case it succeeded?
On a bit of a sidenote i remember reading somewhere how there was a plot to mow him down on a visit to the front but the plan fell through. Something like loyal cavalry/cossacks or something popping him and whatever guards and officers he was with on orders of a AG commander. Although am unsure if there is any truth to that.

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Re: D-Day November 1942

Post by phylo_roadking » 02 Sep 2008 14:44

Actually most of the Axis material sent to Tunisia arrived by sea, mostly via the ports of Tunis and Bizerte. A smaller portion arrived with Rommel, and just about all of that was sent by sea to Tripoli after the Axis retreat from Egypt, post October 1942. The Axis air transport effort got all the publicity but 90+ of the combat units and their supply arrived in Tunisia via Italian cargo ships. From November into march Axis air superiority over the Sicillian/Tunisian straits interfered with Allied interdiction. It was not until the Allies were able to etablish enough air power forward on new built airfields at Tebessa and other locations that the Italian supply effort could be interdicted.

Malta did not have suffcient air or naval units in November 1942 or later to effectively interfere. The Axis were bombing the place in late 1942 and little more than air reconissance and some submarines could operate out of Malta. In simple terms the Royal Navy was not going anywhere close to Sicilly until air superiority was established. They had lost 30+ cargo and war ships in the attempts to supply Malta, including a aircraft carrier, to Axis aircraft and torpedo boats. So the RN did not much try to interdict the Italian sea transport to Tunisia until the USAAF/RAF cleared the sky over the straits.


Submarines and air units operating out of malta in 1942 actually accounted for a huge amount of lost tonnage. if someone can help me look for it, somewhere either here or on Feldgrau there's a link to a set of tables about the tonnage sunk in Italian waters by RAF and FAA units flying out of Malta alone. I was suprised to see the number of individual vessels sunk.

In this case, the front line moving swiftly into Libya and the Desert Air Force moving swiftly up behind it brings the RAF into range of the air- and sea-bridge very quickly by the end of 1942. Its a bigger job for the RAF alone...BUT LW units in italy are going to be being move NORTH AND WEST as fast as they can by then!!!
So, that would leave the material for reinforcing the Axis army in Lybia, the Axis airforces present in Italy, the airbourne force that had been waiting to attack Malta, and the Italian formations. All those were items sent to Tunisa to counter Torch. Obviously this will be a much less effective force, but what it can accomplish depends on A. French resistance at the very start. B. what the Alles end to Tunisia to counter this move. In Nov 41 the French garrison in Bizerte quickly surrendered to the German airbourne forces. The Tunis garrison was ordered to 'cooperate' with the Axis but the garrison commander (Barre') instead withdrew to the hills in the Eastern Dorsall and begain fighting the Germans when the British established a supply route to the location in mid November
It must be remembered that the first week after Torch was indeed VERY confused, with the Vichy authorites issuing conflicting orders. I don't think THIS will be the case IF its the Germans "invading" in November 1942 - Vichy's political reaction would be VERY different. It would also be different in the colonies than in metropolitan France, I can see colonial forces reactiong fully against ANY first invasion at that point.

I can see the Germans attempting to make SOME move to occupy Metroplitan Vichy immediately after an Allied landing in Britanny...but obviously a panic move with FAR fewer troops at their disposal than historically. THIS is what brings Vichy over...the situation GIVES them time to react in some way. And with hostile actions against Vichy in BOTH the colonies and metropolitan france, I can't see them siding with Germany. I can't see public reaction allowing them to. There'd be a FIRST and obviously doomed attempt to proclaim their own non-aligned Neutrality, in tandem with trying to resist the occupation with what few resources they had - THEN a panic call for assistance. From ANYBODY except Germany LOL From THAT point on they're de facto Allies....and have to be treated so by Germany resulting in an immediate drain on their resources for Brittany.

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Re: D-Day November 1942

Post by The_Enigma » 02 Sep 2008 15:10

phylo_roadking wrote: Submarines and air units operating out of malta in 1942 actually accounted for a huge amount of lost tonnage. if someone can help me look for it, somewhere either here or on Feldgrau there's a link to a set of tables about the tonnage sunk in Italian waters by RAF and FAA units flying out of Malta alone. I was suprised to see the number of individual vessels sunk.
Aye, the aircraft from Malta and bombers from further afield were the primary cause for crippling the Italian merchant fleet. They had been hitting the shipping hard since the beginning of the war* but it reached its zenneth in '42-'42.
*ports etc were under attack on a regular basis, even if it was from a few planes at a time and even from carrier attack when the Fleet was at sea.

For an example, in 1941 in a 5 month period 178,577 tons of shipping was sunk. Nothing when compared to the German effort in the Atlantic, however out of this figure 101,894 tons (24/40 ships) was sunk by aircraft. Just to note some of these monthly losses were accounting for in some cases up to 25% of shipping sent. Source Playfair.

I dont have any figures infront of me but i seem to recall a much greater toll inflicted upon the surface fleet in '42 in less time etc. Ill see if i can find some figures later.
I can see the Germans attempting to make SOME move to occupy Metroplitan Vichy immediately after an Allied landing in Britanny...but obviously a panic move with FAR fewer troops at their disposal than historically. THIS is what brings Vichy over...the situation GIVES them time to react in some way. And with hostile actions against Vichy in BOTH the colonies and metropolitan france, I can't see them siding with Germany. I can't see public reaction allowing them to. There'd be a FIRST and obviously doomed attempt to proclaim their own non-aligned Neutrality, in tandem with trying to resist the occupation with what few resources they had - THEN a panic call for assistance. From ANYBODY except Germany LOL From THAT point on they're de facto Allies....and have to be treated so by Germany resulting in an immediate drain on their resources for Brittany.
The whole Vichy thing confuses the hell out of me .... allies or axis ... the grey area? Collaborators? They view the De Gaulle movement as traitors. They appear to side with the Germans, they let the Luftwaffe into the Middle East, they resist portions of the Torch landings .... dont scrap the fleet or flee to fight another day .... the colonies and army appear to side with the Vichy gov and dont want to contuine the fight ..... :? But then on top of all that it is explained to me that in the end the majoirty of the French forces fighting in Italy and then France in 44-45 are made up of the former Vichy Army! Arh! What gives!?!?! 8O :roll: :?

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Re: D-Day November 1942

Post by phylo_roadking » 02 Sep 2008 15:31

I think the secret to reading the Vichy regime is that they regarded themselves as the defeated French government - but STILL the French Government. In their OWN view, that is. Therefore they ACTED as such....and debated, politicked as such! As a "full" nation. On the other hand, you have to figure in that certain major figures had a distinctly collaborationist streak...BUT then you have to break THIS further down into...."personal belief" or personal pragmatism. The later definitely seems to explain Darlan - who's collaboration seems to have risen and fallen with the fortunes of the rump Vichy State....but definitely AT THE SAME time was balanced in the man by his desire to maintain the "independence" of France...or rather, independence of action LOL...in preserving what he could of its military strength and keeping it out of German hands. But even THEN...WE can see his actions as being simply the choosing between highly limited options :wink:

The closest term I've ever some to is the old and out of favour term - "Balkanisation". Vichy France never quite got it into their own heads fully that no matter what THEY thought - the rest of the world, Allies and Neutrals alike may have "liaised" with them as Full neutrals...but were very aware they were an Axis-aligned rump and powerless state. Vichy had the name and diplomatic status of a real "country"....everyone else was pretty pragmatic about it and its roles as Neutral But Aligned :wink: BUT observed the niceties, helping to bolster Vichy's opinion of itself. The Vichy government seems to have retained an overly-inflated opinion of their OWN importance, but really ONLY remained important for what it HAD or what it HELD - not in itself for being "France" anymore.

Now THAT is a really terrible crisis of self-awareness to be in!!!

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Re: D-Day November 1942

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 03 Sep 2008 00:24

phylo_roadking wrote:
Submarines and air units operating out of malta in 1942 actually accounted for a huge amount of lost tonnage. if someone can help me look for it, somewhere either here or on Feldgrau there's a link to a set of tables about the tonnage sunk in Italian waters by RAF and FAA units flying out of Malta alone. I was suprised to see the number of individual vessels sunk.
Alot were sunk, but they still did not shut off the tranport to Tripoli and to Tunisia. If I recall correctly it required something like 1200 USAAF/RAF aircraft in Tunisia to close down the sea route between Italy and Tunisia. Somewhere around here I have a breakdown of the ammount sunk by air & naval units based in Malta, and those based in Egypt or Lybia (when the Brits held the airfields). I'd look it up, but this is a digression from the main topic.
phylo_roadking wrote:In this case, the front line moving swiftly into Libya and the Desert Air Force moving swiftly up behind it brings the RAF into range of the air- and sea-bridge very quickly by the end of 1942. Its a bigger job for the RAF alone...BUT LW units in italy are going to be being move NORTH AND WEST as fast as they can by then!!!
It would be tempting to move LW units in italy NORTH AND WEST as fast as they can. With less than 300 aircraft in NW Europe, another 300 or less in combat ready units in Germany, and few hundred from the Balkans and other corners the Luftwaffe is going to feel pressured. They might even 'ask' the Italians for a few of their best squadrons. With Army Group South in a death match on the Eastern Front it will be difficult to withdraw anything from there in the short run. Particularly since the Soviet Airforce (and what was the offcial Soviet name for that organization?) was on the verge of regaining parity with the German airforce.

phylo_roadking wrote:I can see the Germans attempting to make SOME move to occupy Metroplitan Vichy immediately after an Allied landing in Britanny...but obviously a panic move with FAR fewer troops at their disposal than historically. THIS is what brings Vichy over..
I would hope that US negotiations before the invasion would be helpfull in briniging Vichy to the Akkied side. tho the German threat suggsts the Samuel Johnson quote: "The threat of immenent execution concentrates the mind wonderfully."
phylo_roadking wrote:.the situation GIVES them time to react in some way. And with hostile actions against Vichy in BOTH the colonies and metropolitan france, I can't see them siding with Germany. I can't see public reaction allowing them to.


Not the majority. But, remember there were more than a few ultra conservatives, facists, anti semitites, ect... who favored the Germans. Petains ultra nationalistic program for reviving the nation lent itself to promoting to leadership positions the sort who would think there were advantages to favoring the Germans with aid, or at least sticking to the terms of the armistice. There too many like leon Blum or General Nogues in positions of power to make honoring the will of the majority automatic. Petain may have had the authority to enforce breaking the armistice and reopning the war with Germany but I'd think it would take some extensive preperation/negotiation on the part of the US to pave the way, and even then the odds are not large that Petain could hold all the Vichy government apparatus together.


phylo_roadking wrote:I think the secret to reading the Vichy regime is that they regarded themselves as the defeated French government - but STILL the French Government. In their OWN view, that is. Therefore they ACTED as such....and debated, politicked as such! As a "full" nation. On the other hand, you have to figure in that certain major figures had a distinctly collaborationist streak...


Precisely. Those 'collaborationists' are going to complicate things for everyone. Accquiring information about a possible Allied invasion and passing it to the Germans could create the disaster some folks feared for Sledgehammer.

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Re: D-Day November 1942

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 03 Sep 2008 00:56

The_Enigma wrote: The whole Vichy thing confuses the hell out of me .... allies or axis ... the grey area? Collaborators? They view the De Gaulle movement as traitors. They appear to side with the Germans, they let the Luftwaffe into the Middle East, they resist portions of the Torch landings .... dont scrap the fleet or flee to fight another day .... the colonies and army appear to side with the Vichy gov and dont want to contuine the fight ..... :? But then on top of all that it is explained to me that in the end the majoirty of the French forces fighting in Italy and then France in 44-45 are made up of the former Vichy Army! Arh! What gives!?!?! 8O :roll: :?
French politics of the 20th Century are a cliche for obtuse impentrable complications. In reality they are probablly no more complex or illogical than most other nations. But... if you want to understand just how tangled things could become read up on the endless dickering that went on between the Allied representatives and the French generals in the North African colonys. One wag remarked that when the Axis surrenderd in Tunisia in May of 1943 Eisenhower could spare not time for the event as he had reached a critical point in the negotiation of cease fire terms with the French.

To elaborate my previous posts on this; The Vichy leaders had a large portion of folks who were ultra conservatives, and the Facist movement that originated in the 1920s had a degree of attraction to them. Others had no particular interest in Facisim but they did carry on a long running tradtion of antisemitism and the nazi policys fit their agenda. The anti Semites, the anti Communists and those who saw Jazz music and artists like Picasso or Gertrude Stein as the end of Western Civilization considered a orderly German Army garrisoning France as preferable to a America mob running loose among their daughters. 8O

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Re: D-Day November 1942

Post by Roddoss72 » 03 Sep 2008 01:34

The_Enigma wrote:
Roddoss72 wrote: There would for the time being no Italian campaign, so i suspect that Italy remains in the war much longer.
There would be no massed diversion of German troops to Italy they would be diverted to France.
And some here believe that the Germans would simply capitulate without any resistance.
Regards

Roddoss72
The British wanted to keep the war in the med, if the war was taken back to France via Sledgehammer that doesnt rule out other operations. If there was enough landing craft etc there is the possability of a landing in Sicily like in real life. Like in real life as well such a landing was the final braking point for the Italians.
Assuming Torch as not gone ahead, there is 3 British Armoured Divisins, 3 British Infantry Division, 3 Indian Infantry Divisions, 1 New Zealand Division all in theater. There is one Aussie and South African division which was withdrawn following the conclusion of the fighting in Tunisia. If the North African campaign was concluded there is the possability of at least 12 divisions to be used for such an operation, along with indy infantry and armour/tank brigades. Landing them would be the problem i would imagine, if Sledgehammer took place.

Cant fully answer your second point, they could have gone anywhere really - Italy, France or back to the USSR.

For the third point, I wouldnt believe for a moment that the Germans would simpley role over, however what we historically know - once ashore the Allied force would be hard to boot out. In Normandy they threw there best (well quite a few of them) at the Anglo-American-Canadians and to be fair they got spanked. To give them credit they held the front closed for a few months but bled themselves white in doing so.

Uncle Bob: That was the plot i was thinking of when i typed my post. If i remember correctly it was disguised as a wine bottle of something and they quickly got it out of there once they realised it hadnt exploded. But did they have a plan of action in case it succeeded?
On a bit of a sidenote i remember reading somewhere how there was a plot to mow him down on a visit to the front but the plan fell through. Something like loyal cavalry/cossacks or something popping him and whatever guards and officers he was with on orders of a AG commander. Although am unsure if there is any truth to that.
Salutations Enigma

So the Allies having what as you have quoted 12 divisions in total not only have to defeat the Italians and Germans and any pro Axis Vichy units but then gather as many landing craft in North Africa at the time because they get none from anywhere else and then not only carry out a successful invasion of Sicily, Sardegna and then Axis occupied Corsica but to land on the Italian Mainland with what is left after and face up to 65+ plus Italian and German Divisions, overcomming the Italian Navy, Royal Italian Air Force and finally the Luftwaffe with what 12 Allied Divisions, your faith in those 12 divisions is heart warming. I can imagine the senario, they'd be cut apart.

Onto Vichy France, as with everyone it is a confusing mess, but just suppose that Darlan does indeed order that all Vichy French units in North Africa put up a fight, and that because this is the second such agression towards Vichy by the British the first over ORAN/MSK Vichy France decides to one and for all throw in her lot with Germany, now overlay this on continental France British and US have to launch aerial and naval bombbardment and begin to inflict heavy French civilian casualties, this sets off Petain and Darlan who are angry at the loss of Vichy civilians just like the loss of Vichy personel in ORAN/MSK and decides that again once and for all Vichy throws in her lot with the Germans, so not only does the US and British have to overcome the Germans but also very pissed off Vichy French.

Regards

Roddoss72

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Re: D-Day November 1942

Post by phylo_roadking » 03 Sep 2008 02:32

So the Allies having what as you have quoted 12 divisions in total not only have to defeat the Italians and Germans and any pro Axis Vichy units but then gather as many landing craft in North Africa at the time because they get none from anywhere else and then not only carry out a successful invasion of Sicily, Sardegna and then Axis occupied Corsica but to land on the Italian Mainland with what is left after and face up to 65+ plus Italian and German Divisions, overcomming the Italian Navy, Royal Italian Air Force and finally the Luftwaffe with what 12 Allied Divisions, your faith in those 12 divisions is heart warming. I can imagine the senario, they'd be cut apart.
Perhaps you'd be best looking at WHO actually DID liberate Corsica....and Sardinia wasn't.

As usual - your logic chain defies understanding quite frankly.
not only have to defeat the Italians and Germans and any pro Axis Vichy units but then gather as many landing craft in North Africa at the time because they get none from anywhere else
WHAT pro-Axis Vichy units??? That would not happen.

The options are that
1/ the Germans try to occupy metropolitan Vichy - thus breaking the 1940 Armistice and the colonial adminstrators take a defensive stance against the Axis in North Africa.
2/ the Germans try to occupy Vichy African possessions - and end up forcing Vichy into the Allied camp.
3/ the Germans do nothing. In THAT case Vichy reamins Neutral and refuses to take part in the fighting. As they did BOTH times Hitler tried to get Petain to join the Axis. There ARE no such things as "Pro-Axis Vichy units" UNLESS the Vichy government tells them to be pro-Axis. ...at which point Vichy is NO LONGER NEUTRAL. A position they CHOSE not to abandon in order to come in on the Axis side when they COULD and when it would have profited them.

There is no option available in this WI that brings Vichy into the German side at this point. They had REFUSED historically in better circumstances.
but then gather as many landing craft in North Africa at the time because they get none from anywhere else and then not only carry out a successful invasion of Sicily, Sardegna and then Axis occupied Corsica but to land on the Italian Mainland with what is left after and face up to 65+ plus Italian and German Divisions
Perhaps....just perhaps....it WOULD be an idea that you look at the historical timeline and see that the operations in the Med in 1943-44 WERE carried out with landing vessels that came FROM the Overlord fleet detached for a time. The moment the Allies open a port in the Brittany beachhead - the landing fleet is totally redundant and free to be used for other operations in early 1943. This is EXACTLY what happened throughout the war; there wasn't a fleet created ONLY for the Med, and one ONLY for the English Channel!!! Elements were moved about AS REQUIRED.
and face up to 65+ plus Italian and German Divisions
Perhaps you'd like to list them? On what date are you taking your snapshot? P.S. WHICH of these will NOT, in your opinion, be sent to Western France or across to Rommel?
overcomming the Italian Navy, Royal Italian Air Force and finally the Luftwaffe
The Italian Navy's fleet operations in countering the Allied invasion fleet for Sicily and Italy are well recorded...as being notably absent. The LW will have been moved to France...as probably elements of the Regia Aeronautica again in a panic. Have you missed the posts above regarding the parlous state of the LW in Western Europe in november 1942?
Onto Vichy France, as with everyone it is a confusing mess, but just suppose that Darlan does indeed order that all Vichy French units in North Africa put up a fight, and that because this is the second such agression towards Vichy by the British
WHAT SECOND AGGRESSION??? Have you not been reading this thread? We're talking about the GERMANS taking military action against Vichy, not the British! TAKE A LOOK AT A MAP!!! BRITTANY IS NOT IN VICHY FRANCE.

Let's be quite clear - with NO Torch invasion fleet there would be NO invasion of Vichy territories in North Africa by the Allies. They are physically BEHIND Rommel's rear.
overlay this on continental France British and US have to launch aerial and naval bombbardment and begin to inflict heavy French civilian casualties, this sets off Petain and Darlan who are angry at the loss of Vichy civilians just like the loss of Vichy personel in ORAN/MSK and decides that again once and for all Vichy throws in her lot with the Germans, so not only does the US and British have to overcome the Germans but also very pissed off Vichy French.
Oh just go and look at a map.

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Roddoss72
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Re: D-Day November 1942

Post by Roddoss72 » 03 Sep 2008 04:52

Salutations Phylo

So the 12 allied divisions defeat the Axis in the Mediterannean Theatre, not only North Africa but Italian and Balkan theatres as well.

And then we have these 6 divisions land at Quiberon Bay and defeat the German 1st, 7th and 15th Armies..

Yep it sounds reasonable to me.

Regards

Roddoss72

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Robert Rojas
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RE: The "Perfect" Assassination Attempt.

Post by Robert Rojas » 03 Sep 2008 08:22

Greetings to both citizen The Enigma and the community as a whole. Howdy T.E.! Well sir, in light of your pointed inquiries as noted within your installment of Tuesday - September 02, 2008 - 1:25pm, old Uncle Bob would like to recommend the THE VALKYRIE CONSPIRACY website for your perusal. This particular website will provide you with the barratrous details that you seek without going into a droning treatise on the subject. The section entitled as (The "Perfect" Assassination Attempt) will address the untimely demise of the all knowing Bohemian Corporal and the events set into theoretical motion by the Wehrmacht's projected coup d'etat scheduled for March of 1943. The website's address is http://valkyrie-plot.com/1943.html and I sincerely do hope that its contents adequately broach your concerns. ENJOY! Well, that's my latest two cents, pence or pfennigs worth on this peripherial topic of interest - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic over in merry old England. GOD SAVE THE QUEEN - not to mention everybody else.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :) :wink: 8-)

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The_Enigma
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Re: D-Day November 1942

Post by The_Enigma » 03 Sep 2008 09:56

So the Allies having what as you have quoted 12 divisions in total not only have to defeat the Italians and Germans and any pro Axis Vichy units but then gather as many landing craft in North Africa at the time because they get none from anywhere else and then not only carry out a successful invasion of Sicily, Sardegna and then Axis occupied Corsica but to land on the Italian Mainland with what is left after and face up to 65+ plus Italian and German Divisions, overcomming the Italian Navy, Royal Italian Air Force and finally the Luftwaffe with what 12 Allied Divisions, your faith in those 12 divisions is heart warming. I can imagine the senario, they'd be cut apart.

Did I actually say any of that? Please read what I wrote and do not twist my words.

What I did say, if Operation Sledgehammer had of been launched the chance of OKW sending more forces to North Africa would have most likely been limited giving raise to the possibility of ending the campaign in Africa earlier.
If logistically possible there would still be enough forces (if the Australian and South African troops were not withdrawn) to still carry out something similar to Operation Husky and on the same scale. The invasion of Sicily is all I talked about, which historically brought down Mussolini and knocked Italy out of the war (the majority of her armed forces were disarmed and it was only afterwards that the Socialist Republic rose and raised forces iirc).
I mentioned nothing of a landing on the mainland or engaging 60+ axis divisions with only a force of 12.
overcomming the Italian Navy
You don’t need to overcome the navy with a land force, the Mediterranean Fleet had done a splendid job of crippling the fleet and making sure there capital ships did not venture out again looking for trouble.
Royal Italian Air Force and finally the Luftwaffe
[/quote]

Likewise, a small entity called the RAF based out of Malta and North Africa had done a good enough job thus far in providing air support to the Eighth Army – no one has yet mentioned there withdrawal from the theatre or downsizing so a land force wouldn’t be without support.
And then we have these 6 divisions land at Quiberon Bay and defeat the German 1st, 7th and 15th Armies..
As already noted, with the logistic backing and being right next to home base the build up could be completed at a decent rate and with much more than 6 divisions. As i noted on the first page, there was 20 something British divisions sitting at home at this time - being fair not all up to full strength or soon to be switched to training formations etc. Then there is the Canadian formations and the massive number of yanks. The whatif started off with an initial invasion of a small force but didnt talk about build up.


Excellent link Bob, i didnt realise that Valkyrie was established before the 1944 plot thus i didnt quite realise the other attempts on his life werent just assination attempts but full coup attempts.

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