USA rushes in to prevent 1940 German invasion of the UK

Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
Post Reply
User avatar
Tim Smith
Member
Posts: 6177
Joined: 19 Aug 2002, 13:15
Location: UK

Re: USA rushes in to prevent 1940 German invasion of the UK

#226

Post by Tim Smith » 18 Mar 2009, 16:56

phylo_roadking wrote:Jim, I don't want to intrude on BoB WI thread territory...but during the BoB the U.S. was already sending the British a large number of fighter aircraft that were originally ordered by France but couldn't now be delivered, as well as the fighter and bomber aircraft bought and paid for by the British themselves originally. During the historical BoB unengaged fighter squadrons in RAF Fighter Command Groups outside Eleven and Twelve group were reequiping with these, with deliveries of American types continuing into 1941.
Really? Those aircraft, sent during the BoB, must have been more Curtiss Hawk 75's then - the Tomahawks (P-40's) came later. Mohawks, in RAF parlance. They had to be armed with .303 Vickers K guns, and the throttle converted to open forward instead of backward. They were all sent overseas, to South Africa and India.

How could the RAF spare any pilots to train on Hawks during the Battle of Britain, when they already had more Spitfires and Hurricanes than they had pilots to fly them? Not sure I buy that part of the story.

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: USA rushes in to prevent 1940 German invasion of the UK

#227

Post by phylo_roadking » 18 Mar 2009, 19:57

You ask "where have heard that before??? " Wherever I have asked for a source and you have failed to give one.
Sid, I really hate to disappoint you, but I don't ALWAYS refer to YOU or even have you in mind when I type here...
"You may like to think so..." - where have I heard that before???
- I was thinking more of Francis Urquhart than Sid Guttridge there :lol:
Last edited by phylo_roadking on 18 Mar 2009, 20:27, edited 1 time in total.


User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: USA rushes in to prevent 1940 German invasion of the UK

#228

Post by phylo_roadking » 18 Mar 2009, 20:25

Really? Those aircraft, sent during the BoB, must have been more Curtiss Hawk 75's then - the Tomahawks (P-40's) came later. Mohawks, in RAF parlance. They had to be armed with .303 Vickers K guns, and the throttle converted to open forward instead of backward. They were all sent overseas, to South Africa and India.
Tim, the Hawk75A's of various types (the RAF received a total of 227 IIRC) did eventually go overseas - some to the RSAF and some to India, but there was at least one squadron IIRC equiped with Mohawks in the Uk during the OTL Battle Of Britain. Britain was also buying Brewster Buffalos, P-40s, Bell P-39's etc., many of which ended up going abroad (either in British/Commonwealth service....or in the case of the P-39's palmed off on to the Soviets! :lol: ) because by the time they arrived in the Uk they were either surplus to requirements or down on performance compared to contemporary Western European types, which developed fast from Autumn 1939 to Mid-1941. Buth you have to remember they were only surplus to Fighter Command requirements at home BECAUSE we won the BoB and did so without any many aircraft production losses bar the five raids on Supermarine at Southampton and the destruction of the BTH magento factory in Coventry later in 1940. Historically we did indeed outproduce the LW, enough so that Fighter Command could go on the offensive (albeit at cost) over Western France in the spring of 1941...but in mid-summer 1940 "we" didn't know of that happy outcome.

This however is a WI...and I see no reason why the British wouldn't be giving their first fighter imports - once the mainland UK is directly threatened - to services like the FFA which were still patrolling the North of Scotland and Scapa Flow with Blackburn Rocs etc. 8O For a time frontline units will be getting new British fighter stock out of the factories and reconditioned out of Beaverbook's Forward Repair Depots - but this supply will be problematic once the LW has local air superiority over Kent and Sussex and are free to range beyond that area both against Fighter Command bases north of the Thames, but also increasingly against the UK's aircraft industry. The LW is free as the "range closes" to attack training fields in the North of England and Scotland, aircraft factories in the Midlands, factory/development airfields, ATS fields and the "storage" satellite landing grounds etc. - in other words carrying the anti-Fighter Command and anti-RAF establishment campaign further and further out from the forward edge of the bridgehead.

This is the one major advantage that the LW will enjoy if an invasion tales place successfully; once that campaign can be mounted from fields in the bridgehead and behind the now-useless CH/CHL RDF barrier - the LW can begin again to use Stukas etc. on shorter-range tactical missions with no RAF Early Warning net except verbal reports of aircraft crossing the front line, the Royal Observer Corps listening and observation posts etc. In other words - IF the Germans get ashore and can fly sorties from English territory, the RAF loses its "time" barrier of the English Channel to detect them and deploy aircraft against them. It becomes an aerial battle of attrition like France in May of 1940...but with all elements of the RAF's "home base" (as Dowding called it) within reach of tactical missions with little or no early warning.

In THOSE circumstances I can see the RAF using whatever it can get its hands on eventually; but my point is - it has an extra supply source and isn't reliant on JUST UK aircraft factories :wink:

User avatar
LWD
Member
Posts: 8618
Joined: 21 Sep 2005, 22:46
Location: Michigan

Re: USA rushes in to prevent 1940 German invasion of the UK

#229

Post by LWD » 18 Mar 2009, 20:33

phylo_roadking wrote: ...- but this supply will be problematic once the LW has local air superiority over Kent and Sussex and are free to range beyond that area both against Fighter Command bases north of the Thames, but also increasingly against the UK's aircraft industry. The LW is free as the "range closes" to attack training fields in the North of England and Scotland, aircraft factories in the Midlands, factory/development airfields, ATS fields and the "storage" satellite landing grounds etc. - in other words carrying the anti-Fighter Command and anti-RAF establishment campaign further and further out from the forward edge of the bridgehead.
How many of the factories did the Germans actually know about? I thought at least one of those they actually hit was by accident (they didn't know about it and were aiming for something else).
... IF the Germans get ashore and can fly sorties from English territory, the RAF loses its "time" barrier of the English Channel to detect them and deploy aircraft against them. It becomes an aerial battle of attrition like France in May of 1940...but with all elements of the RAF's "home base" (as Dowding called it) within reach of tactical missions with little or no early warning....
Of course those "new" LW fields are also subject to attack (P-39 might have really come into it's own there) and as the Germans are going to be somewhat limited in fuel, parts, and AA ammo this might not prove to be as useful as some might think. Of course if you suppose the RAF has been eliminated thats one thing but that requrires a major POD well before 1939.

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: USA rushes in to prevent 1940 German invasion of the UK

#230

Post by phylo_roadking » 18 Mar 2009, 21:56

How many of the factories did the Germans actually know about? I thought at least one of those they actually hit was by accident (they didn't know about it and were aiming for something else).
The pre-war factories had a pretty high profile; let's face it, the Germans just had to pick up a pre-war copy of The Aeroplane and others every week...but they weren't aware of the shadow factories like Castle Bromwich. Nor have I ever seen any sign they were aware of the Forward Repair Depots - given that Beppo Schmid completely over-estimated the attrition rate suffered by the RAF.

However - the downside is that with the LW attempting to fly an increasing number of tactical or ground-support sorties over England, there'll be a far higher number of photo-recce missions, if only for pre- and post-raid damage analysis. So even if they don't spot camoflaged factories, landing grounds and airfields are very hard to disguise...
Of course those "new" LW fields are also subject to attack (P-39 might have really come into it's own there)
Historically, the first Airacobras only started coming into RAF service (with No. 601 Sqn) in August 1941, the first only arriving in the country a month earlier. Bell had to fill the USAAF's big 400-plane order for P-39Ds first. This is however something that FDR could choose to do something about in 1940 - changing delivery priorities. He COULD also choose to do something about them being delivered without the "secret" turbosupercharger, the lack of which in the P-39s supplied to the RAF turned them into underperforming dogs :lol: No.601 Sqn was the only RAF squadron ever operational with them - and began changing them out for Spitfires in March 1942. (IIRC there was a thread about them here on AHF, and 601 Sqn nearly mutinied over them; in the end they only flew a VERY small number of operatonal sorties with them)

Copnversely - as of December 7th 1941 the USAAF had five Pursuit Groups equiped with the fullpower version of the P-39D, 600 of them...and the turbosupercharger-equiped P-39 was pretty effective against the Zero.
Of course if you suppose the RAF has been eliminated thats one thing but that requrires a major POD well before 1939.
After the initial air aupremacy battle that would allow the Germans ashore, and the post-landing air battle between the LW and the Fighter Command-escorted "Banquet bombers" attacking the invasion beaches - both sides will be severely attrited.

But while the RAF will be better placed to reinforce its fighter component after that two-stage battle than the Luftwaffe...the Luftwaffe, with its now-back-to-strength Stuka squadrons that it would have had to withdraw as per OTL from combat in the early days of the BoB, will NOW have them available to help the Wehrmacht exploit the bridgehead, while Bomber Command's day bombers will have suffered atrociously from barge-busting, attacking the invasion fleet, and the Banquet operations. And May in France had killed the Army Co-op squadrons.
Last edited by phylo_roadking on 18 Mar 2009, 22:08, edited 1 time in total.

Hop
Member
Posts: 571
Joined: 09 Apr 2002, 01:55
Location: United Kingdom

Re: USA rushes in to prevent 1940 German invasion of the UK

#231

Post by Hop » 18 Mar 2009, 22:02

Very few US fighters arrived in time for the BoB.

From the UK archives, US fighter types delivered to the RAF, 3rd September 1939 - 3rd September 1940:

19 Buffaloes
88 Mohawks

That compares to 1,782 Hurricanes and 862 Spitfires produced over the same period.

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: USA rushes in to prevent 1940 German invasion of the UK

#232

Post by phylo_roadking » 18 Mar 2009, 22:10

Hop, you beat me to the punch with the actual numbers! :D
3rd September 1939 - 3rd September 1940
However...in the event of the RAF losing the BoB or at least local air superiority over Kent and Sussex - the dates aren't going to close there; the subsequent air battles and defence of the UK will continue through the Autumn into the winter and beyond, and as I said above, there's no guarantee Hawker or Supermarine...OR Rolls Royce...could keep up production to historical levels.

Can you imagine the mayhem if something affected Rolls Royce' production??? 8O That would halt production of BOTH RAF fighter types, and halt the panic production of "replacement" types like the Miles M.20....

User avatar
Simon K
Member
Posts: 1425
Joined: 19 Jul 2008, 20:25
Location: London U.K

Re: USA rushes in to prevent 1940 German invasion of the UK

#233

Post by Simon K » 19 Mar 2009, 02:13

I agree with that and an acute observation
The loss of daylight air superiority over Kent and Sussex would not mean that a German invasion would thus be automatic or even more likely.
I have gone on about this in countless posts re Sealion/BoB :)
The significance and impact of airpower in 1940 has been hugely overstated from the post war historical perspective, eminating originally from Churchill.
The effect on invasion shipping by BC has also been wildly overstated, and this argument continues to be propagated to the present.
im glad to see some balance beginning to be restored, and the fresh recognition the Fleet was decisive as the anti invasion weapon. Also new evidence has begun to be widely used which demonstrates the ability of RN heavy units to operate in shore bombardent of invasion shipping and related targets in 1940 with complete immunity from the LW.
Derek Robinson - Invasion 1940 attempts to argue this, and is a fresh approach. An iconoclastic little book.

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: USA rushes in to prevent 1940 German invasion of the UK

#234

Post by phylo_roadking » 19 Mar 2009, 03:57

Simon, automatic - no....but - more likely...?

Air superiority was one of the primary criteria in the original 19th July Sealion Directive. It is of course just one favourable factor that the Germans need to enjoy - but it is a biggie, and could in their mind outweight some more questionable factors. If they gained local air superiority over Eleven group's area of responsibility - then by definition they have a freer reign on the sea approaches to the Kent and Sussex coasts.

Not totally free, of course - and as we know the RAF were to throw literally EVERYTHING that could fly at the invasion force either at sea or on landing; this was what the Operation Banquet preparations were for - for every available RAF aircraft, trainers of all types, transport aircraft etc. to attack the invasion beaches with gas munitions, both Mustard Gas and Paris Green, a period highly-toxic weedkiller/pesticide. I think it was on Feldgrau ages ago I posted up the actual operational orders for the RAF for this; Fighter Command was to give priority over everything to escorting the Banquet Bombers to the beaches...

The problem is - this means a second massive air battle over South-East England, and it's this that will truly attrit both air forces; the RAF of everything, and the Luftwaffe of fighter aircraft to protect the bridgehead from this attack. It's this air battle in the first days of any invasion that really brings the question of which air force can re-equip fastest with whatever to the fore. The "Battle Of Britain" was a tactical battle, the parameters for victory set as much by the fears of the British as the expectations of the Germans i.e. that forcing Fighter Command to withdraw north of the Thames would cede an exploitable victory to the LW because Britain would lose her Chain Home/Chain Home Low radar-based early warning capability, thus levelling the playfield with the Luftwaffe, and forcing the rump of the RAF to fly PRE-radar defensive tactics - permanent and widespread Combat Air Patrols etc....which would be terribly wearing on aircraft and exhausting on pilots.

After an invasion, therefore - after these two air battles one after the other....the British at least STILL have the advantage of shiploads of at least partly-trained pilots coming in from abroad, from the Empire training schools - and those pilots shot down over "Free Britain" will be recovered to fly again if possible. Meanwhile, there will be RAF fighter types still in production in the shadow factories, and U.S. imports.

The Luftwaffe however doesn't have this flow of imported war materiel, and can only look forward to the regular flow from Germany's own factories or making older types operational again, like the withdrawn BF109Ds - while they can only expect replacement aircrew at the normal speed that the LW training system produced them "domestically".
Also new evidence has begun to be widely used which demonstrates the ability of RN heavy units to operate in shore bombardent of invasion shipping and related targets in 1940 with complete immunity from the LW.
Derek Robinson - Invasion 1940 attempts to argue this, and is a fresh approach. An iconoclastic little book.
I've said this too on a number of threads; Norway in 1940 and Crete in 1941 proved how vulnerable surface vessels were to concentrated aerial attack...but they ALSO showed how surface units COULD withstand even the fiercest of air attacks until something happens to reduce their AA capability, like the AA cruisers off Crete that had to be sent back into the area of risk without repenishing their AA munitions.

One factor that is often forgotten is that by the time the RN should WANT its capital ships to possibly enter the Channel and break the "sea bridge" between France and the invasion bridgehead...the Luftwaffe's bomber capacity will have been severely affected by its "Battle of Britain" bombing campaign against Eleven Group's airfields. It will be hard pressed to fly anti-shipping sorties AND tactical sorties in support of the Wehrmacht in Kent AND continue attacking the RAF's "home base" targets behind the British frontlines - airfields north of the Thames and west of the bridgehead, aircraft factories and other industries, longrange attacks against Northern UK ports unloading U.S. aid, etc.

As I said to Jim - have a look at John Ray for how the LW historically entered the BoB heavily attrited after May and June 1940, look at their historical losses in the BoB itself...and NOW factor in the extra operational requirements of not only continuing that level of operations against Fighter Command behind the defenders' front line, but also flying anti-shipping operations against the RN and tactical and ground support ops in support of the Army in Kent. The Luftwaffe simply wouldn't have the strength left to do it all, something would have to give...and ALL three requirements are vital -

Lighten up on Fighter Command and the RAF "home base", and the British ability to rebuild the RAF kicks in even more quickly;

Cut the number of anti-shipping sorties to a minimum - and you let the RN cut the sea bridge supplying the invasion force;

Cut the number of sorties flown in support of the Wehrmacht in Britain - and you rob the blitzkrieg in England of its vital "aerial artillery"...

User avatar
Simon K
Member
Posts: 1425
Joined: 19 Jul 2008, 20:25
Location: London U.K

Re: USA rushes in to prevent 1940 German invasion of the UK

#235

Post by Simon K » 19 Mar 2009, 04:11

And with the continuing lack of a long range LW fighter, FCs withdrawal will lure LW bomber assets to greater strain and attrition. It would be too weak to maintain a sustained attack of the midland and northern shadow plants, and the usual "beam bending" technology would apply.

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: USA rushes in to prevent 1940 German invasion of the UK

#236

Post by phylo_roadking » 19 Mar 2009, 04:46

It would be too weak to maintain a sustained attack of the midland and northern shadow plants, and the usual "beam bending" technology would apply.
...and the aircraft necessary for these attacks, by night - the LW's He111s and Ju88s...will be the aircraft seriously attrited in the initial OTL "BoB" campaign over South-East England...

This is where the early-war LW suffers for having a lack of a dedicated strategic bomber force, a force that could pursue this element of the campaign separately, while allowing the LW's tactical bombers to support the land ground campaign. After an invasion, as the air campaign continues, the LW will have to attempt both roles with the same shrunken force. NOW which air force is going to be exhausted first...? :wink:

By late 1940 the RAF is still not going to have an effective nightfighter - but if you shoot down LW tactical bombers over the battlefield by day, they're not there to fly against Britain's aircraft factories by night.

User avatar
bf109 emil
Member
Posts: 3627
Joined: 25 Mar 2008, 22:20
Location: Youngstown Alberta Canada

Re: USA rushes in to prevent 1940 German invasion of the UK

#237

Post by bf109 emil » 19 Mar 2009, 10:06

This is where the early-war LW suffers for having a lack of a dedicated strategic bomber force, a force that could pursue this element of the campaign separately, while allowing the LW's tactical bombers to support the land ground campaign. After an invasion, as the air campaign continues, the LW will have to attempt both roles with the same shrunken force. NOW which air force is going to be exhausted first...?
the punishment the Ju87 took being tracked and spotted on radar and there slow speed led to there withdrawl in the BoB...this plane in a short flight ground campaign and the lack of radar inland might not have faced the same drawbacks as having to form up and fly over the channel allowing fighters to be sent to intercept them. In a low altitude quick hit ground campaign against front line targets...as success had shown them against France, Poland, Russia when needed or required to preform this role i think they would have again shown there mastery at aiding in the role they where designed for or reached they pinnacle of fame as another arm or aid to the Wehrmacht.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10162
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: USA rushes in to prevent 1940 German invasion of the UK

#238

Post by Sid Guttridge » 19 Mar 2009, 13:21

Hi Phylo,

And we were doing so well....

You write: "Sid, I really hate to disappoint you, but I don't ALWAYS refer to YOU or even have you in mind when I type here..."

That presumably means that there are posters other than me who have asked you for a source and to whom you have failed to give one. Thank you for your candour. It is refreshing. I applaud you for that as well.

How foolish of me, to have thought the "you" in "You may like to think so..." was addressed to me in a post to me!

Cheers,

Sid.

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: USA rushes in to prevent 1940 German invasion of the UK

#239

Post by phylo_roadking » 19 Mar 2009, 18:14

You write: "Sid, I really hate to disappoint you, but I don't ALWAYS refer to YOU or even have you in mind when I type here..."

That presumably means that there are posters other than me who have asked you for a source and to whom you have failed to give one. Thank you for your candour. It is refreshing. I applaud you for that as well.

Likewise I was referring to AHF and posting there as a whole, not anything to do with you at all.

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: USA rushes in to prevent 1940 German invasion of the UK

#240

Post by phylo_roadking » 19 Mar 2009, 18:26

the punishment the Ju87 took being tracked and spotted on radar and there slow speed led to there withdrawl in the BoB...this plane in a short flight ground campaign and the lack of radar inland might not have faced the same drawbacks as having to form up and fly over the channel allowing fighters to be sent to intercept them. In a low altitude quick hit ground campaign against front line targets...as success had shown them against France, Poland, Russia when needed or required to preform this role i think they would have again shown there mastery at aiding in the role they where designed for or reached they pinnacle of fame as another arm or aid to the Wehrmacht.
Jim - the problem is...the same multiplicity of requirements and demands issue affects them too. What Stukas can operate from inside the bridgehead will be essential for supporting the Army, and can't individually carry the bombload necessary for a "counter-force"campaign against British industry. Also, once the RAF is reduced to flying CAP and reacting to ground-spotting of enemy aircraft....the slower Stukas will be more vulnerable over "long haul" raids up England than shortrange sorties out of the bridgehead and back again.

The British will be in an enviable position regarding daylight aerial observation of aircraft than the French or Poles or any other nation who's airspace had been by then invaded by the Luftwaffe; a volunteer Royal Observer Corps that had been drilling and practising for a couple of years, an ARP organisation likewise trained in enemy aircraft recognition, and an activated Home Guard in the unoccupied areas of the country able to fill in gaps. If the BoB continues on past an invasion into an air battle over England and over a ground battle front line - these organisations will be invaluable for spotting and reporting LW raids and intruders. Don't forget - the ROC was historically invaluable during the OTL Battle of Britain for spotting enemy raids and movement once they had passed the CH/CHL line on the coast.

it's not going to be foolproof, and it's not going to be quick - but an aircraft brought down on the way home from a raid, while it may have done damage that time out....doesn't get to do any more :wink: And slower, visually distinctive aircraft like the Ju-87 are going to be the most vulernable of German bomber types to ground observation, and whatever vestiges remain of the fighter vectoring system. Therefore at a guess they'll be employed where of the most use for the lesser risk - supporting the ground forces, popping in and out of the LW air umbrella over the bridgehead.

In other words - the air war after an invasion will be very much like the kind of air warfare envisaged in the 1930's before radar was invented.

Post Reply

Return to “What if”