Bismarck vs Iowa class Battlership

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Hanny
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Re: Bismarck vs Iowa class Battlership

Post by Hanny » 23 Feb 2019 11:46

xxSLOWxxRYDERxx wrote:
23 Feb 2019 05:47
Just seen this post, I wasn’t even out of diapers when this was published but I have some questions about the Bismarck and Iowa, is anyone here still active on this website 16 years later?
Try http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm#guns
World of warships prob has a lot of debate on the forums.
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T. A. Gardner
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Re: Bismarck vs Iowa class Battlership

Post by T. A. Gardner » 23 Feb 2019 16:18

xxSLOWxxRYDERxx wrote:
23 Feb 2019 05:47
Just seen this post, I wasn’t even out of diapers when this was published but I have some questions about the Bismarck and Iowa, is anyone here still active on this website 16 years later?
Go for it. I've been discussing this stuff for forever. There is discussion on the World of Warships board about this in historical terms, but most of what's there is in terms of the game which is not the same thing by any stretch.

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Re: Bismarck vs Iowa class Battlership

Post by maltesefalcon » 23 Feb 2019 16:38

Circumstances would determine the outcome more than the actual capabilities of both vessels.
US BB did not routinely venture out on their own.

If Bismarck was still afloat any time after spring 1943, then an encounter with Iowa class BB would have at least one carrier in the mix. P of W, Repulse, Yamato, Musashi all on the bottom due primarily to air attack. Bismarck would just be one more.
Last edited by maltesefalcon on 23 Feb 2019 23:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Terry Duncan
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Re: Bismarck vs Iowa class Battlership

Post by Terry Duncan » 23 Feb 2019 21:19

xxSLOWxxRYDERxx wrote:
23 Feb 2019 05:47
Just seen this post, I wasn’t even out of diapers when this was published but I have some questions about the Bismarck and Iowa, is anyone here still active on this website 16 years later?
Well worth a try, although a lot depends on exactly what you wish to compare. A precise comparison is obviously not possible as technology moved on a lot during WWII, so the two ships never really existed in a comparable state there. As for a comparison of the basic designs, this is certainly possible, as would be a rough comparison of both designs with optimal tech fits in a given year, but that allows for big changes to the basic designs, see Yamato 1942 vs Shinano as a battleship in the last projected configuration. There are likely many readers here with at least a decade or so of experience in this line of discussion from many boards, so ask away on any points you would like to know more about!

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: Bismarck vs Iowa class Battlership

Post by T. A. Gardner » 24 Feb 2019 21:52

maltesefalcon wrote:
23 Feb 2019 16:38
Circumstances would determine the outcome more than the actual capabilities of both vessels.
US BB did not routinely venture out on their own.

If Bismarck was still afloat any time after spring 1943, then an encounter with Iowa class BB would have at least one carrier in the mix. P of W, Repulse, Yamato, Musashi all on the bottom due primarily to air attack. Bismarck would just be one more.
Exactly. The Bismarck could potentially win in a very limited set of circumstances in such an engagement. For Bismarck to have a decent chance of winning versus an Iowa, the two would have to encounter each other at a range under 20,000 yards where the weather / light conditions were favorable for optical fire control.
This would require that the Iowa somehow missed detecting Bismarck on any of several search and fire control radars that could do so up to nearly four times that range. Detection was virtually guarrenteed at double that range (40,000 yards). The Mk 8 fire control radar on the Iowa is a technological tour-de-force for the time. It was an early track while scan set with a PPI display. The Seetakt set uses a A scope. This makes the Mk 8 something like 20+ times more accurate in range and bearing.
While the Bismarck's optics are better than the Iowa's the Mk 8 is so much better than any optical system it renders them almost irrelevant.

Since first on target is almost certainly going to be the winner, that the Iowa can fire accurately and detect a ship at much longer ranges under most circumstances than Bismarck, the Bismarck loses.

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Robert Rojas
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RE: Bismarck Versus Iowa Class Battleship.

Post by Robert Rojas » 25 Feb 2019 07:03

Greetings to both brother " xxSlOWxxRYDERxx" and the community as a whole. Howdy Slow Ryder! Well sir, in respect to your INCOMPLETE posting of Friday - February 22, 2019 - 8:47pm, old yours truly has absolutely no idea how to broach a question OR questions that have not even been asked in the first place! Now, if YOU HAVE specific technical and theoretical inquiries about a potential gunnery duel between a Bismarck class battleship AND a Iowa class battleship THEN WHAT EXACTLY ARE THEY? Contrary to urban myth and legend, the forum's Armchair Admiralty is not exactly known for its collective powers of clairvoyance. Now, this fishing expedition notwithstanding, this ground pounding landlubber would like to make the following suggestion which MIGHT or MIGHT NOT address the salient thrust of this thread's open ended title. When the time avails itself, you might want to acquaint OR possibly reacquaint yourself with the events of November 15, 1942 during the FIRST NAVAL BATTLE OF GUADALCANAL. In terms of specificity, I believe (RIGHTLY or WRONGLY), that the engagement between the Imperial Japanese Navy's Battlecruiser Kirishima and the United States Navy's North Carolina class battleship U.S.S. Washington (BB-56) just might act as real life historical stand ins for a theoretical clash between a Bismarck class battleship and a Iowa class battleship. I hope this approach is of relevant assistance to you. Incidentally, WELCOME TO OUR MERRY LITTLE ASYLUM! Well, that's my initial two Yankee cents worth on this now vintage exercise from yesteryear - for now anyway, In any case, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day from sea to shining sea.


Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :| :welcome:
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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Re: Bismarck vs Iowa class Battlership

Post by maltesefalcon » 25 Feb 2019 18:00

I was thinking of that one myself. However that was not a one on one battle. True, USS Washington beat the hell out of Kirishima, which eventually capsized and sank. But SoDak was also there and came out of the battle somewhat worse for wear. There were a number of smaller vessels involved on both sides as well.

Per my earlier post, I would struggle to think of any situation where Bismarck (or Tirpitz) would encounter only one unescorted Iowa.

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RE: Bismarck Versus Iowa Class Battleship.

Post by Robert Rojas » 25 Feb 2019 18:58

Greetings to both cousin Maltese Falcon and the community as a whole. Howdy M.F.! Well sir, in respect to your posing of Monday - February 25, 2019 - 9:00am, old yours truly is NOT in dispute with any of your historically proven observations. Yes, the events that transpired on November 15, 1942, were, in fact, a multiple ship engagement, And yes, the Battlecruiser Kirishima certainly got its licks in vís a vís the U.S.S. South Dakota. Actually, I'm rather surprised that the U.S.S. South Dakota was not sunk during that action. Now, depending upon what source one might want to believe, it has been my "understanding" that the heavily damaged and crippled Battlecruiser Kirishima was subsequently scuttled by the Japanese themselves. However, with that said, SUNK IS STILL SUNK! Finally, like yourself, I have my own difficulties ever envisioning an Iowa class battlewagon ever sailing unescorted. Well, that's my latest two Yankee cents worth on this vintage exercise from yesteryear - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day up in your corner of the proverbial GREAT WHITE NORTH of Canada - EH!?


Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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Terry Duncan
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Re: Bismarck vs Iowa class Battlership

Post by Terry Duncan » 25 Feb 2019 20:57

The big problems for the Japanese on 15th Nov were that the ships were set for extended shore bombardment and the decks had many HE shells stored on them for all calibers including 14" and were only carrying HE, the AP being unloaded earlier as it was thought it wouldn't be needed.

At to the idea of an Iowa never being alone etc, the same could be said for Italian ships and land-based airpower, for British carriers expected to always being within the range of land-based airpower, and so on. These are operational considerations but shouldn't preclude a one on one comparison as all the ships were designed with a comparison to other nations ships with this in mind with the exception of British carriers, as all likely enemies did not have a carrier force and were expected to rely on land-based airpower in that particular case. An Iowa could have found itself on the northern convoy routes to Russia as other US battleships did at times, with only cruisers for company, something the Germans could theoretically match.

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Takao
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Re: Bismarck vs Iowa class Battlership

Post by Takao » 25 Feb 2019 21:24

Well, when she was working up and operating out of Argentia, Newfoundland, during late August, 1943 - late October, 1943, she was escorted by DesRon 10( destroyers USS Ellyson, USS Rodman, and USS Emmons). Although, she was usually within range of land-based air.

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Re: Bismarck vs Iowa class Battlership

Post by maltesefalcon » 26 Feb 2019 00:06

Terry Duncan wrote:
25 Feb 2019 20:57
The big problems for the Japanese on 15th Nov were that the ships were set for extended shore bombardment and the decks had many HE shells stored on them for all calibers including 14" and were only carrying HE, the AP being unloaded earlier as it was thought it wouldn't be needed.

At to the idea of an Iowa never being alone etc, the same could be said for Italian ships and land-based airpower, for British carriers expected to always being within the range of land-based airpower, and so on. These are operational considerations but shouldn't preclude a one on one comparison as all the ships were designed with a comparison to other nations ships with this in mind with the exception of British carriers, as all likely enemies did not have a carrier force and were expected to rely on land-based airpower in that particular case. An Iowa could have found itself on the northern convoy routes to Russia as other US battleships did at times, with only cruisers for company, something the Germans could theoretically match.
Not disputing your hypothesis, which is a good one. That being said, I based my own replies to the conditions in the OP.

No other ships mentioned or alluded to, only a comparison between these two examples. Hence my comment that the outcome depends on circumstances.

Those circumstances could include luck....a single round hitting a magazine as in Hood or Arizona. Or an early one hitting a radar array as in Scharnhost.

One can't base the outcome on a spec sheet alone.

And I think the OP also mentioned the encounter takes place in the North Atlantic, not the Murmansk run, which I believe is in the Arctic Ocean.

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Terry Duncan
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Re: Bismarck vs Iowa class Battlership

Post by Terry Duncan » 26 Feb 2019 10:16

The problem is that you are also unlikely to encounter a lone Bismarck too, at which point we need to consider what escorts the capital ship has in both cases, and then how each escort compares, which complicates things a lot. For example, an Iowa with 2 Omaha class cruisers is likely to do a lot worse against a Bismarck with 2 Deutschlands than an Iowa with 2 Baltimores will do. Luck may well happen, but you cannot rely upon either. Tiger probably took as many hits at Jutland as Seydlitz and didn't sink on a sandbank on the way home, or explode like Queen Mary after about a third as many hits! To answer the question as easily as possible you need to keep things to a minimum as outliers of chance will always exist.

The OP said North Atlantic certainly, but the Murmansk runs went through that to get to the Arctic Ocean or the northern North Sea - which has appalling visibility and weather too! It is rather sad the OP has not had more to say so far though, as it would be interesting to see exactly what he had in mind.

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Re: RE: Bismarck Versus Iowa Class Battleship.

Post by Kingfish » 26 Feb 2019 10:54

Robert Rojas wrote:
25 Feb 2019 07:03
When the time avails itself, you might want to acquaint OR possibly reacquaint yourself with the events of November 15, 1942 during the FIRST NAVAL BATTLE OF GUADALCANAL.
Pardon the minor nitpick, but the engagement you refer to is commonly known as the *third* naval battle of Guadalcanal (although Wiki refers to it as the second).
The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.
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RE: Bismarck Versus Iowa Class Battlership.

Post by Robert Rojas » 26 Feb 2019 18:50

Greetings to both brother Kingfish and the community as a whole. Howdy K.F.! Well sir, in respect to your posting of Tuesday - February 26, 2019 - 1:54am, old yours truly will freely concede that I have never had any great passion for matters that are either naval or maritime and like the long historical parade of British monarchs, old Uncle Bob will occasionally crash and burn with sequential order of events or which dynasty did what and when. Incidentally, I was more than a bit surprised when you made reference to the often criticized Wikipedia resource. Since my return to the neighborhood-at -large, you've struck me as an individual that, through the process of osmosis anyway, has retained a wide ranging encyclopedic knowledge on a broad spectrum of academic topics. So, I would not call it nitpicking. Finally, I would be remiss if I did not ask you to say hello to old Andy Brown the next time you run into him. In this age of UBER and LYFT, it must be pretty tough to earn a living as a traditional CAB DRIVER. Well, that's my latest two Yankee cents worth on this sojourn into the depths of Iron Bottom Sound - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day from sea to shining sea.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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Re: Bismarck vs Iowa class Battlership

Post by Felix C » 27 Feb 2019 14:49

My stock answer in these debates is whoever gains the first telling hit. FC, boilers, etc. One big hit and the damaged heavy pulls away. That is how it was in WW2 unless cornered ala Bismarck or Scharnhorst. No one fights to the death if the day goes against them. They withdraw for another day. Benefit of having escorts to screen away from the scene.

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