Bismarck vs Iowa class Battlership

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maltesefalcon
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Re: Bismarck vs Iowa class Battlership

Post by maltesefalcon » 11 Mar 2019 21:22

Baldir wrote:
11 Mar 2019 09:47
''...never imagined they were to meet each other on the high seas...'

I think we all agree that is not probable they would meet 1:1. But it is not impossible. Either Iowa is transfered to GB and accidentially meets Tirpitz (like Hood vs Bismarck e.g.) or they have a duel amidst other ships. Or on the D day, Tirpitz sails south and Iowa, which is the closest to Tirpitz intercept it before other ships. Not very likely, but not impossible.
The encounter between Hood and P of W with Bismarck and Prinz Eugen was not accidental as the above implies. The RN knew when Bismarck left port and had ships following. In addition there was a determined air search. Although some contact was lost at times at least they knew their approximate location and heading.

Hood and P of W were specifically sent out to engage the German battleship and were actively looking for them when they met up.

On another note I had a bit of a hiccup typing this on my Ipad. For some reason selections from my first post in his thread kept popping in by themselves. This was without using the cut and paste function btw. Not sure if it is a site glitch or my hardware. Has this happened to anyone else?

Nautilus
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Re: Bismarck vs Iowa class Battlership

Post by Nautilus » 12 Mar 2019 13:58

Bismarck class had some disadvantage over any potential USN opponent, as they could not be upgraded to take the 40.6cm SK C/34 guns at all. When the 40.6cm turret had been designed, the rotating mass got ~420 tonnes heavier than for a 38cm and it needed larger barbette diameter, so they could only be installed on a ship designed for them (H39-H41).

When test firing had been performed, the difference in penetration ability between a 38cm and a 40.6cm was not too great, so it was judged the RN possible opponents could not resist the AP shell from a 38cm anyway (As proved by the fight with PoW and Hood). Unfortunately, neither could Bismarck resist a serious pounding from RN 16in Mark I, and the USN 16"/50 Mark 7 was far more destructive.

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Takao
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Re: Bismarck vs Iowa class Battlership

Post by Takao » 12 Mar 2019 16:54

maltesefalcon wrote:
11 Mar 2019 17:34

There was one opportunity for a gun battle vs Tirpitz. USS Alabama was despatched as part of a USN/RN task force in June 1943 as part of an attempt to lure Tirpitz into open waters. But Tirpitz did not fall for the bait, likely remembering the outcome of an unequal duel between Rodney, KGV et al and her sister ship.

On paper at least, Iowa was also despatched to Argentia in August the same year for a similar mission. Nothing came of it either.

One of the difficulties was the narrow waters that Tirpitz would need to negotiate. Depending on the course set, one of the fleets would need to risk coming dangerously close to land based air attack.
July, 1943...You have confused Operation FH with Operation Governor.

Problem was this would not have likely resulted in a one on one, as the two main Allied forces were each composed of 2 battleships and 1 carrier plus escorts.

maltesefalcon
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Re: Bismarck vs Iowa class Battlership

Post by maltesefalcon » 15 Mar 2019 18:25

Takao wrote:
12 Mar 2019 16:54
maltesefalcon wrote:
11 Mar 2019 17:34

There was one opportunity for a gun battle vs Tirpitz. USS Alabama was despatched as part of a USN/RN task force in June 1943 as part of an attempt to lure Tirpitz into open waters. But Tirpitz did not fall for the bait, likely remembering the outcome of an unequal duel between Rodney, KGV et al and her sister ship.

On paper at least, Iowa was also despatched to Argentia in August the same year for a similar mission. Nothing came of it either.

One of the difficulties was the narrow waters that Tirpitz would need to negotiate. Depending on the course set, one of the fleets would need to risk coming dangerously close to land based air attack.
July, 1943...You have confused Operation FH with Operation Governor.

Problem was this would not have likely resulted in a one on one, as the two main Allied forces were each composed of 2 battleships and 1 carrier plus escorts.
Agreed with your analysis on the force composition. In fact, I posted a similar thought earlier in the thread. Was just trying to offer some concept that the Allies had actively sought a way to sink the Tirpitz by conventional means; but the DKM would not come out to play.

Sorry for the date mix-up though.

Nautilus
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Re: Bismarck vs Iowa class Battlership

Post by Nautilus » 15 Mar 2019 20:41

maltesefalcon wrote:
11 Mar 2019 17:34
Nautilus wrote:
11 Mar 2019 16:55
Logical scenarios:

1. The USN assigns, no matter the reason, as in Real Life there was none, a flotilla of BBs to escort a convoy to Britain as of 1941. Which means on one side a North Carolina class BB, 1 or 2 heavy cruisers plus a destroyer escort of 3-4 vessels. On the other side, Bismarck, Prinz Eugen, 3-4 destroyers. (But North Carolinas were not in full commission in May 1941, due to propeller problems.

2. At least one Iowa gets commissioned in late 1943 and gets assigned to convoy duty in the Arctic. This means on one side Iowa, a KGV- class BB, 3-4 British cruisers and a destroyer escort, on the other side Tirpitz, Scharnhorst, 1 heavy cruiser and a destroyer escort.

Of course, if H39 gets built, if a H41 meets a Montana, the possibilities are endless :D
There was one opportunity for a gun battle vs Tirpitz. USS Alabama was despatched as part of a USN/RN task force in June 1943 as part of an attempt to lure Tirpitz into open waters. But Tirpitz did not fall for the bait, likely remembering the outcome of an unequal duel between Rodney, KGV et al and her sister ship.
Operation Governor aimed to catch a German fleet (Tirpitz, Scharnhorst, Lützow and 11 destroyers) between a "hammer" (HMS Anson, USS Alabama BB-60, HMS Illustrious plus 7 destroyers) and an "anvil" (USS South Dakota BB-57, HMS Duke of York, HMS Unicorn, HMS Bermuda plus 9 destroyers), which would result in a German defeat no matter what.

A Bismarck-class BB, if used properly and not exposed to unnecessary risk, could withstand two similar BB opponents as happened against HMS PoW and HMS Hood. But four of them together, plus two carrier air wings, there's no way out. Of course, Scharnhorst and Lützow could do a lot of major damage with 15 x 28cm guns, but while cruisers, destroyers and BB lighter-armored parts could not resist their shells, neither could they survive a major air attack or 16in pounding.

As the Germans could crack most British Naval ciphers and they expected such a trap, they didn't take the bait.

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Re: Bismarck vs Iowa class Battlership

Post by Thoddy » 23 May 2019 11:09

Nautilus wrote:
12 Mar 2019 13:58
Bismarck class had some disadvantage over any potential USN opponent,
may I ask for the "any" disadvantages?
...neither the Americans planned the Iowas or North Carolinas to fight in the North Sea...
...neither the Germans planned the Bismarcks for use in the North Sea...
Last edited by Thoddy on 23 May 2019 13:46, edited 2 times in total.
"Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!"

Thoddy
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Re: Bismarck vs Iowa class Battlership

Post by Thoddy » 23 May 2019 11:12

double post
"Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!"

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