The Montana class battleship were never built. This should be a better matchup than the Bismarck Iowa matchup.
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/usnshtp/bb/bb67.htm
http://www.warships1.com/USbb67_Montana_history.htm
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/67.htm
http://www.greatwhitefleet.org/montana/03/history.htm
Yamato Battleship vs Montana Class BattleShip
I think this is a no-brainer - the Montana class ships, had they been built, would have commissioned in 1945 and 1946. Thanks to advances in US radar-directed fire control, which by the end of the war enabled the Americans to fire accurately from beyond the visual horizon, Yamato wouldn't have stood much of a chance.
Even Iowa could have defeated Yamato, provided she used the right tactics. By staying at extreme range (over 40,000 yds) , Iowa could use her radar fire control to score fairly regular hits on Yamato, while simultaneously making constant evasive maneuvers. Japanese radar was poor and her optics, although excellent, would have been very hard pressed to score hits against an evasive target at such ranges.
However, even in 1944 and early 1945, thanks to superb Japanese security measures, the US Navy still seriously underestimated both the displacement of Yamato and the size of her guns. They thought she was only about 50,000 tons with 16" guns, when in fact she was 62,000 tons with 18" guns. Accordingly in an engagement they might well have closed the range with her in order to score more hits.
In any late war engagement with modern US battleships, the Americans would have scored many more hits on Yamato than Yamato scored on them in return, although Yamato's bigger shells would have done more damage when they did hit.
Had the decisive battleship engagement the Japanese wanted occurred in 1942, before the development of advanced radar and before the Iowas were commissioned, then I think the Japanese might have won. Suppose that it was Yamato at the naval battle of Guadalcanal in Nov 1942 instead of the old Kirishima? The US battleships Washington and South Dakota could have been sunk.
Even Iowa could have defeated Yamato, provided she used the right tactics. By staying at extreme range (over 40,000 yds) , Iowa could use her radar fire control to score fairly regular hits on Yamato, while simultaneously making constant evasive maneuvers. Japanese radar was poor and her optics, although excellent, would have been very hard pressed to score hits against an evasive target at such ranges.
However, even in 1944 and early 1945, thanks to superb Japanese security measures, the US Navy still seriously underestimated both the displacement of Yamato and the size of her guns. They thought she was only about 50,000 tons with 16" guns, when in fact she was 62,000 tons with 18" guns. Accordingly in an engagement they might well have closed the range with her in order to score more hits.
In any late war engagement with modern US battleships, the Americans would have scored many more hits on Yamato than Yamato scored on them in return, although Yamato's bigger shells would have done more damage when they did hit.
Had the decisive battleship engagement the Japanese wanted occurred in 1942, before the development of advanced radar and before the Iowas were commissioned, then I think the Japanese might have won. Suppose that it was Yamato at the naval battle of Guadalcanal in Nov 1942 instead of the old Kirishima? The US battleships Washington and South Dakota could have been sunk.
Tim Smith writes: "Suppose that it was Yamato at the naval battle of Guadalcanal in Nov 1942 instead of the old Kirishima? The US battleships Washington and South Dakota could have been sunk."
I'm not so sure about that. Washington fired some extremely accurate salvos using radar ranging. Regardless of the target, the shells would still have hit, and the target would still have been at a firing disadvantage due to night. Washington's 16" rifles weren't as powerful as those on the Iowas, but neither were they tinkertoys. Washington only fired some half a dozen salvos before the target was wrecked, but if the target had been Yamato, she could have fired many more than half a dozen if she needed to.
And remember that though South Dakota was being engaged, the Japanese didn't even know Washington was there until her rounds hit the target.
I'm not so sure about that. Washington fired some extremely accurate salvos using radar ranging. Regardless of the target, the shells would still have hit, and the target would still have been at a firing disadvantage due to night. Washington's 16" rifles weren't as powerful as those on the Iowas, but neither were they tinkertoys. Washington only fired some half a dozen salvos before the target was wrecked, but if the target had been Yamato, she could have fired many more than half a dozen if she needed to.
And remember that though South Dakota was being engaged, the Japanese didn't even know Washington was there until her rounds hit the target.
"The American advantage was a radar. However the Japanese were better trained particulary in fight at night and torpedo attacks."
Agreed.....but what good did they do in the fight under discussion?
Changing Kirishima for Yamato, while keeping the other parameters the same, basically equates to the same end result--Washington, un-noticed, blasts Yamato. The key factor was radar-controlled gunnery, which negated the Japanese torpedo and night-fighting advantages.
Agreed.....but what good did they do in the fight under discussion?
Changing Kirishima for Yamato, while keeping the other parameters the same, basically equates to the same end result--Washington, un-noticed, blasts Yamato. The key factor was radar-controlled gunnery, which negated the Japanese torpedo and night-fighting advantages.
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Musashi
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I agree. What if radar would be damaged (for example hit by shell)?Galahad wrote:"The American advantage was a radar. However the Japanese were better trained particulary in fight at night and torpedo attacks."
Agreed.....but what good did they do in the fight under discussion?
Changing Kirishima for Yamato, while keeping the other parameters the same, basically equates to the same end result--Washington, un-noticed, blasts Yamato. The key factor was radar-controlled gunnery, which negated the Japanese torpedo and night-fighting advantages.
Musashi never engaged in combat against anything but aircraft. She took a pounding, but was sunk. Yamato engaged in surface combat once, at the Battle of Samar, part of the Battle of Leyte Gulf, when she fired on US escort carriers and destroyers. Aside from that, she only engaged aircraft.....though she, too, took a pounding before being sunk.
Part of the problem of using them was that they used a large amount of fuel every time they put to sea, and Japan was short on fuel.
Part of the problem of using them was that they used a large amount of fuel every time they put to sea, and Japan was short on fuel.
A bit over 2000 tonne for each turret and yes, about the weight of a destroyer from my sources. Secondary armament of 12 6.1 inch guns also.
Thats a pretty good achievement for a country the size of Japan.
Thats a pretty good achievement for a country the size of Japan.
Last edited by Napoli on 25 Jan 2003, 11:37, edited 1 time in total.
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philodraco
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Concerning the sinking of the Gambier Bay: "Placed in the tail end position of the task unit, she was hit repeatedly by battleship and heavy cruiser shells. Overwhelmed by the superior Japanese force, she was eventually shot to pieces and sank beneath the waves at 0907, with the U.S. ensign still flying from her mast. The TU 77.4.3 Action Report stated, "...This ship was hit by gunfire and lost the use of one engine. Six Japanese heavy cruisers finally closed to 2000 yards, and the ship was sunk about 0900/25 October 1944 in Latitude 12 degrees 30'N - 126 degrees 30'E as the result of about twenty hits from 8 inch guns...."
USS GAMBIER BAY (CVE 73) received four Battle Stars for her service in World War II. She also received the Presidential Unit Citation as a member of Task Unit 77.4.3."
USS GAMBIER BAY (CVE 73) received four Battle Stars for her service in World War II. She also received the Presidential Unit Citation as a member of Task Unit 77.4.3."
The Yamato fired her guns only during the opening part of the battle. She had to turn away from the fight in order to out-run American torpedos fired in her direction. This action, in effect, took her out of the battle. From what I have read, her marksmanship was rather poor. This is most likely due to a lack of live fire training on the crew's part.