Netherlands as the leader of a united Germany

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nuyt
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Re: Will fight the British anyway

#31

Post by nuyt » 15 May 2009, 09:38

Dave Bender wrote:If one or both Boer Republics attacks Britain without provocation they will lose international sympathy. Germany would certainly wash their hands of the situation.
Agreed, but Kruger is smart enough to wait for the right moment. Or if no such moment arrives, the Boers start aiding their cousins across the borders and provoke revolts against the British, make the Cape Province a headache for them.

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Pacifying Germany

#32

Post by Dave Bender » 15 May 2009, 16:17

Historically Deutsches Reich attacked no one during 1871 to 1913 except for the multi-national Boxer expedition. That's exceptionally peaceful compared to the actions of Britain, France, Italy, Japan, Russia and the USA during the same time period. Kaiser Wilhelm I did not like war and Kaiser Wilhelm II was downright timid.

Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelmina ... etherlands

Crown Prinz Wilhelm of Prussia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William,_G ... own_Prince

Queen Wilhelmina was only 2 years older then Crown Prinz Wilhelm. In this alternate time line they could marry as part of the arrangement joining the Netherlands to Deutches Reich. This marriage takes place between 1901 and 1905. Probably too late to make a difference in South Africa.

Britain and France will not approve of this union between Germany and the Netherlands as it makes Germany even more dominant on the European continent. Russia will be out of the picture for awhile as Japan has just cleaned their clock. Supposedly Queen Wilhelmina had a stern dislike for Britain. She could stir up her father in law (Kaiser Wilhelm II) to adopt a more confrontational foreign policy concerning Britain. Perhaps Germany will provide military assistance to the Moroccan government in 1905 rather then just protesting the French invasion (which was supported by Britain).


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Re: Netherlands as the leader of a united Germany

#33

Post by chronos20th » 15 May 2009, 16:42

If the Netherlands remain a part of the Holy Roman Empire (easy - Charles V
divides his empire differently and eventually takes the lead in a united Germany, then history as we know it will be completely different and there will be no WW1 as we know it.

Indeed the principal competitor on the continent will be Germany and it is possibly Britain could have been allied to royalist France againt Germany.

Remember there were three Dutch war.

But the Netherlands will be united and there will be no Belgium. The Netherlands is likely to be Habsburg if Charles V divides his empire differently.

But Britain will be anti-German as the preponderate power on the continent and the Balance of Power being destroyed.

If we reach the 20th century more or less as things were in OTL, then the royalist government of Louis 23rd is likely to go for the French-German-Russian tie-up as France will go for a colonial empire at Britain's expense and not the continental option.

But the showdown would have come much earlier over the Boer Republics, who would have been German not Dutch, and with Wilhelm II only being King of Prussia and not being able to save it, Britain would have been forced to accept the mediation of Russia, Germany-Hungary and France.

So you see Britain was very lucky in the way the Continent became divided as it did.

8-) 8-) :lol: :lol: P :P :P :D :D
Last edited by chronos20th on 15 May 2009, 16:48, edited 2 times in total.

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Royalist government of Louis 23rd

#34

Post by Dave Bender » 15 May 2009, 16:47

If France is still a monarchy in 1900 then European history changes beyond recognition. What happens to Napolean? He could just as easily end up leader of the Italian Army as the French Army.

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Re: Netherlands as the leader of a united Germany

#35

Post by chronos20th » 15 May 2009, 16:51

there is likely, as has been said, to be a feldmarshal von Bonaparte of the imperial Habsburg army. All it needs is his father to send him to military officers school in Vienna and not France.

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Re: Netherlands as the leader of a united Germany

#36

Post by nuyt » 16 May 2009, 20:21

I dont think there is any question of the two countries merging around 1900, but a monarchical and economical union yes, some sort of double monarchy, like Austria-Hungary.

The Dutch will never give up their own culture, army, navy, entreprises and just disappear in a larger Germnay and forget about their language and so on. On the contrary, the Dutch will think they are superior to the Germans anyway.
Until the 1930s Germans were thought of by the Dutch as dum, obedient, hard workers, good technicians, the girls making good housekeepers or wives. Note that for hundreds of years there had been a steady immigration of low skilled Germans from various German states into Holland and many men were employed overseas as sailors, soldiers,workmen. Germans were seen as obedient and hard working, but not as leaders. So, naturally the Dutch feel superior and think they are the Godchosen ones to rule the Germans, Europe and the World.

The Indies do not get German troops, but the Dutch will reinforce their colonies themselves. This opportunity stems from the fact there is no need for a Dutch strong army in Europe anymore as they can hide behind or even co-command the German forces.
The Dutch send more Marines overseas and more ships. the NIL (NEI army) expands to 100.000 men and remains a professional force for Dutchmen (10%), Germans (20 %), Indonesians (60%) and foreigners (10%) alike. The NIL becomes more (in)famous than La Legion.
The Dutch Army is deployed overseas and Dutch overseas conscripts are trained by the Dutch Army and not by KNIL as in real life.
Another elite professional force is set up, the Korps Politietroepen (In real life this elite corps existed between the World Wars). These will be shock troops to be used throughout the Dutch lands and colonies, consisting of around 20 companies, half of which in the East and West Indies (8+2). There will also be a voluntary Landstorm.

Africa
Around 1900 many colonies still do not fully control their territories, especially in the interiors. The Portuguese still try to subdue various peoples in southern Angola and in Mozambique, The Germans are still fighting in South-West (and Tanganyika?), etc.
The Boers and Brits will probably reach a stalemate. Swaziland will remain under Boer control. The Boers continue to organise and build up their forces. Maybe the Boers turn to Lourenco Marques to obtain their own port? They should defeat the Portuguese without any problem. The Germans could try to expand further north from their South West into wild territories or Angola or South from Tanganyika into Mozambique...
Or maybe the Brits, Boers and Germans strike a deal against the Portuguese and carve up Moz among them: the North to the Germans, the South to the Boers and the centre to the Brits. The Brits now have a port for Rhodesia and that would make a land swap with the Boers easier to swallow. So the Norther Cape province and the Vryheid district of Natal go to the Boers with Capeland or Karoo becoming a separate Republic in the Boer federation, while the British cling on to the southern Cape and Natal (Cape Town-East London-Durban. No Cape to Cairo but Beira to Cairo (but the Brits remain in possesion of the Cape of Good Hope).

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Re: Netherlands as the leader of a united Germany

#37

Post by Dave Bender » 16 May 2009, 21:36

The Dutch will never give up their own culture, army, navy, entreprises and just disappear in a larger Germnay
They don't need to. Deutsches Reich had a rather weak national government. Most government services functioned at the state level. The Netherlands would have a status similiar to Bavaria. That German state retained their own monarchy.

The Dutch army would be reorganized using the German TOE (Table of Organization and Equipment). However it would fall under German General Staff command only upon mobilization.

Germany did have a single navy. Dutch ships would become part of this. I expect they would keep their Dutch names and initially keep their Dutch crews.

The Dutch colonial service would merge with the Deutsche Kolonialgesellschaft. Initially everyone would keep their current duty positions. After that German officials would be eligible to serve in the East Indies and Dutch officials would be eligible for transfer to the German colonies in Africa.

The Dutch foreign ministry would merge with that of Germany. That will be a culture shock if they are as aggressive as nuyt! :)

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Re: Netherlands as the leader of a united Germany

#38

Post by nuyt » 16 May 2009, 21:46

Dave Bender wrote: The Dutch foreign ministry would merge with that of Germany. That will be a culture shock if they are as aggressive as nuyt! :)
Well, as long as the Germans are obedient and hard working, it will work out just fine 8-)
And you know the problem with that merging business is that the Dutch will never get the German grammar right... :roll: so no career moves for Dutchmen after the initial transisition period...

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Dutch will never get the German grammar right

#39

Post by Dave Bender » 17 May 2009, 14:33

How much difference is there between Dutch and Deutsch? Is it greater then between Austrian (German) and Prussian (German)?

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Re: Netherlands as the leader of a united Germany

#40

Post by nuyt » 17 May 2009, 14:55

Sorry, two very different languages!

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Two very different languages!

#41

Post by Dave Bender » 17 May 2009, 18:24

Sounds like the Dutch residents of Deutsches Reich who aspire to positions of authority in government or the armed forces will become bilingual. That's not such a bad thing. :)

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Re: Netherlands as the leader of a united Germany

#42

Post by Jurgen Wullenwever » 17 May 2009, 20:31

The population of Germany was not speaking Standard High German a couple of centuries ago. The local dialects in Germany were often as different from German as the Dutch language in the Netherlands was. The difference seems to be that in the age of reformation, AD 1500, the medieval local writing traditions ended, and Standard High German became the written language in Germany, while the Dutch kept writing their own spoken language. If the Dutch had done as the Low Saxons to the east of them, and gradually switched to German, there would have been almost no Dutch language today.
If another difference to OTL is that Holland and the other principalities decide to stay in the Holy Roman empire in 1648, and to expand territorially in Germany from time to time, in the same way that Prussia and Hanover did, it would be a rather reasonable development. One major change would be in 1815, when the Rhineland is given to the Netherlands instead of Prussia. This larger realm (historically Netherlands+Belgium which split after a few years) of the Netherlands + Belgium + the Rhineland is held together. This state is so strong that it forces Prussia to abstain from expanding further in Germany (no takeover of Hanover) in exchange for being one of the major lands of the new united Germany. Austria is still forced out of the German Union, as part of the deal between the Dutch and the Prussians.
In that way, the situation of 1870 is approximately the historical one, except that there is no separate Dutch written language and the enlarged Netherlands is the dominant state in the united Germany.

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Re: Netherlands as the leader of a united Germany

#43

Post by chronos20th » 17 May 2009, 21:29

Quite so.

As my German master explained, there was no standard German language two centuries ago. Standard High German as the written language originated from the reformation and the translation of the bible and German liturgy, as did Standard English in Britain for the same reason.

I think the Netherlands would have remained as part of the HRE if Charles V had divided his empire differently, assigning the Netherlands to Austria rather than Spain, in which case the Habsburg emperor must find a way to allow his Dutch subjects to be Protestant, but in that case there will be a different treaty to that of Westphalia. Also the Netherlands will be Habsburg and there will be a "GrossDeutchland" and Austria will not get kicked out of Germany. If so Prussia will be just another kingdom within a united Germany and Germany will be MittelEuropa which almost unstoppable.

8-) 8-) :D :D :P :P

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Re: Netherlands as the leader of a united Germany

#44

Post by nuyt » 22 May 2009, 10:22

OK, that enlarged Netherlands state evolving for centuries within Germany will have several consequences, one of which will be that the dominant language may have more Dutch influence (if the Neth is where it all happens and with cities growing, sciences, and businesses expanding etc).
The other result will be that this enlarged Germany will be much more globally oriented and outlooking, The Dutch will be the window to the world. And the Dutch will adopt a more continental approach on colonization. In a German Empire, it will no longer be the Dutch private Companies that colonize and rule overseas territories (like was the case until 1795), but the state.
So like with all other imperial powers the flag will soon follow trade as will the church as will settlers. Now consider the state taking over the Dutch companies possessions from the 17th century on, that means New Amsterdam is part of the Empire (and cannot be sold by the WIC), same for Surinam, Essequibo (Guyana), Northeastern Brazil, Luanda, the Cape, The Gold Coast, Formosa, some possesions in India, Ceylon island, Malacca, Desima trading post in Japan, the Indies. There may have been other settlements as well, like some forts or cities in the Arabian Peninsula, Australia, China etc.
Now will the German Empire lose all these colonies the way the Dutch lost them in the 17th and 18th centuries. Will they lose the war against the Portuguese in Brazil? No, the Dutch will take Salvador. Will they let the Portugese buy arms and lend money for their war against the Dutch in Amsterdam? No. Will they lose Luanda? No. Will they lose New Amsterdam? No, there will be an enlarged Dutch/German Colony in present New York/Penns with Dutch and German settlers pouring in.
The Dutch fought several wars against the Brits in those years. Only sometimes they beat the Brits, but now with the German Empire behind them? There will be a Dutch/German global Empire...O, my God, will they abolish slavery in the early 19th century like the Brits? Probably they wait as long as the Dutch waited, until the 1860s, or will German continental thoughtfullness enlighten the Dutch?

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Enlarged Netherlands state evolving for centuries

#45

Post by Dave Bender » 22 May 2009, 14:17

What is your point of departure? We need to start there and work forward.

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