Alternative story for the battleship Yamato???

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H.Schubert
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Alternative story for the battleship Yamato???

Post by H.Schubert » 14 Aug 2009 12:15

:)

I think this would make a great evening discussion and everyone could let his imagination free will. Thought would it be good to consider some basic facts of the time.

Let's keep two alternative fates separated:
For 1) Keeping the initial operation plan of fighting the USN at close range and at best case go ashore on Okinawa beach . As this plan was a suicide mission , lets imagine in any case under fate 1) that the ship gets destroyed,sunk at the end.

For 2) Yamato goes a complete different way and engages an other target somewhere else, where? what? how?
So it would be interesting to see what kind of targets would make a relevant change in the USN strategy plans . For exemple: Yamato goes ashore on Waikiki beach! :wink:

Polynikes
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Re: Alternative story for the battleship Yamato???

Post by Polynikes » 15 Aug 2009 01:14

I can only see this thread getting locked down pretty quick.

I think you're supposed to submit your own alternate history first.

mezsat2
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Re: Alternative story for the battleship Yamato???

Post by mezsat2 » 15 Aug 2009 02:12

H.Schubert wrote::)

I think this would make a great evening discussion and everyone could let his imagination free will. Thought would it be good to consider some basic facts of the time.

Let's keep two alternative fates separated:
For 1) Keeping the initial operation plan of fighting the USN at close range and at best case go ashore on Okinawa beach . As this plan was a suicide mission , lets imagine in any case under fate 1) that the ship gets destroyed,sunk at the end.

For 2) Yamato goes a complete different way and engages an other target somewhere else, where? what? how?
So it would be interesting to see what kind of targets would make a relevant change in the USN strategy plans . For exemple: Yamato goes ashore on Waikiki beach! :wink:
3)Yamato survives the war by anchoring off Hokkaido. A few years later, she goes down guns blazing in a desperate fight against Godzilla.

Von Schadewald
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Re: Alternative story for the battleship Yamato???

Post by Von Schadewald » 16 Aug 2009 00:48

A realistic depiction of Yamato's end http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUl1mAjTTb0

Surely there's no other way it could have gone. Given the Yamato's lack of fuel and the Allied radar, air and submarine cover, there's no way she could do them any damage.

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princeliberty10311517
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Re: Alternative story for the battleship Yamato???

Post by princeliberty10311517 » 16 Aug 2009 03:09

Sad end to a great ship, but at the end of the war its going down.


The only way to make it different is to use the ship in bold way earlier in the war so it goes down hammering some marines landing or something like that.

But near the end war there is no way it can even accomplish anything.

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Robert Rojas
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RE: In The Shadow Of Admiral Togo.

Post by Robert Rojas » 16 Aug 2009 07:55

Greetings to both citizen H. Schubert and the community as a whole. Well H.S., in respect to your introductory posting of Friday - August 14, 2009 - 12:15pm, old Uncle Bob will attempt to address your secondary alternative option with a rather conventional solution. The conventional solution of which I speak is simply retaining the surviving surface elements of the Imperial Japanese Navy in the littoral waters of the strait of Tsushima. Given the prevailing geopolitical realities of the Pacific War as they existed in year 1945, one would think that the powers-that-be in Tokyo would be doing their utmost to maintain the vital maritime link between the continent of Asia and the home islands of Japan. In otherwords, with the home islands of Japan preparing for the all but inevitable Anglo-American invasion in the autumn of 1945, it would be imperative to keep the shipping lanes between the Korean peninsula and the Japanese island of Kyushu open and available to withdraw units of the Imperial Japanese Army from China in order to bolster the defenses of Japan proper. In short, the battleship Yamato, along with the surviving elements of Japan's surface fleet would be engaged in old fashioned escort duty for those Japanese troop convoys shuttling back and forth across the strait of Tsushima. Needless to say, there would be more than enough Japanese aviation assets available on both sides of the strait of Tsushima to provide a reasonable degree of cover for these heavily escorted Japanese troop convoys. With that said, does the British Commonwealth and the United States of America really desire to refight the BATTLE OF TSUSHIMA or does the British Commonwealth and the United States of America ignore the activities in the strait in Tsushima and proceed with Operation Olympic and Operation Coronet in lieu of the presence of nuclear weapons? It's just some sobering food for thought. Sushi anyone? Well, that's my initial two Yankee cents worth on this hypothetical topic of interest - for now anyway. In anycase, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day no matter where you just might happen to find yourself on Terra Firma.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

Carl Schwamberger
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Re: Alternative story for the battleship Yamato???

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 16 Aug 2009 14:01

Shifting the question slightly might be better. WI the fuel had been allocated to send the Yamato & auxillaries along to the Solomons in September-November 1942? How would the Washington & S Dakota fare had they faced modern Japanese battleships that night instead of upgraded battle crusiers?

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LWD
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Re: Alternative story for the battleship Yamato???

Post by LWD » 17 Aug 2009 13:45

Von Schadewald wrote:.... Given the Yamato's lack of fuel and the Allied radar, air and submarine cover, there's no way she could do them any damage.
I have read that while only enough fuel was alloted for Yamato to reach Okinawa she was actually given significantly more.

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LWD
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Re: Alternative story for the battleship Yamato???

Post by LWD » 17 Aug 2009 13:51

Carl Schwamberger wrote:Shifting the question slightly might be better. WI the fuel had been allocated to send the Yamato & auxillaries along to the Solomons in September-November 1942? How would the Washington & S Dakota fare had they faced modern Japanese battleships that night instead of upgraded battle crusiers?
SoDak would probably have been a bit worse for it but Yamato isn't going to do much better at taking 2700 lb rounds at that range than Kirishima. There's also the problem that she can't get in and out during night time which means even if the US BBs aren't there shes likely to suffer at least some at the hands of US aircraft. Her bigger radar signature might even result in both US BBs targeting and hitting earlier so SoDak might get some licks in before her power goes down.

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Re: Alternative story for the battleship Yamato???

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 19 Aug 2009 02:36

Interesting. I cant recall were the US carriers were that date. Henderson field would be a threat as well. One assumes the Japanese would try to provide adaquate fighter cover, but I'll have to review how that was playing out.

There are a few other variables such as how well the Yamamotos crew was trained & if it had any mechanical problems. The South Dakota was not the only ship which went into malfunction mode when the big guns fired. One assumes fueling the Yamamoto for this sortie would preclude more than one other battleship o the raid. So, the overall Japanese flotillia would be not much larger.

Perhaps the largest variable is if the admiral & captain aboard the Yamamoto would make the same mistakes or decisions as historically.

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mescal
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Re: Alternative story for the battleship Yamato???

Post by mescal » 19 Aug 2009 10:06

LWD wrote: SoDak would probably have been a bit worse for it but Yamato isn't going to do much better at taking 2700 lb rounds at that range than Kirishima.

Well, Yamato was far better armored than the Kongos. Those were ww1-vintage battlecruisers reclassified as battleships after their reconstruction, but they did not really warrant the BB qualification. Their armor remained really subpar by ww2 standards. They had no IZ vs the US 16" Mark8 shells.
You may have a look at this article to see that the Washington made short work of Kirishima :
http://www.navweaps.com/index_lundgren/ ... alysis.pdf

On the other hand, Yamato had a 16" belt (and 24" on the front of the turrets) as well as a 8" deck. This gives her, in very rough number an IZ from 20-22,000 yards to 35,000 yards for the citadel.

It should not be forgotten either what would happen if Yamato had been able to score hits. In case of Kirishima's 14-inchers, Washington should have been able to withstand it -- her armor scheme was after all designed to defeat precisely such shells. But it was an entirely different matter to sustain hits by 3,300lbs shells. I lack some precise data here, but if Washington had an IZ vs Yamato, it was a very narrow one, at around 32,000 yards. (I do not have the figures for SoDak right now). Anyway none of the US BBs was designed to withstand 18" shells.

I cant recall were the US carriers were that date.
USS Enterprise was the only carrier available in the area by that time (Saratoga was still on her way to South Pacific by that time, probably in the Fidji area). She was stationed south of Guadalcanal, but had still not fully recovered from the damage received at Santa Cruz (she had one elevator off service, impairing her air operations, IIRC).
She headed for Noumea for repair after the OTL battle.
Olivier

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Re: Alternative story for the battleship Yamato???

Post by mezsat2 » 26 Aug 2009 13:31

Von Schadewald wrote:A realistic depiction of Yamato's end http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUl1mAjTTb0

Surely there's no other way it could have gone. Given the Yamato's lack of fuel and the Allied radar, air and submarine cover, there's no way she could do them any damage.
Wow. Never saw that. Yamato (and her small escort) was swarmed by 380 aircraft- 17 combined bomb and torpedo hits. By comparison, the mass devastation at Pearl Harbor was executed by less than 350 planes.

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LWD
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Re: Alternative story for the battleship Yamato???

Post by LWD » 26 Aug 2009 15:52

mescal wrote:
LWD wrote: SoDak would probably have been a bit worse for it but Yamato isn't going to do much better at taking 2700 lb rounds at that range than Kirishima.
Well, Yamato was far better armored than the Kongos. .... This gives her, in very rough number an IZ from 20-22,000 yards to 35,000 yards for the citadel.....
Indeed but since the battle took place at less than 20,000 yards indeed some of it at less than 10,000 yards the turret faces area about all that Yamato has that will be proof against Washingtons 16" guns.

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mescal
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Re: Alternative story for the battleship Yamato???

Post by mescal » 28 Aug 2009 09:13

Hello,

It looks like I forgot that the battle occured at night. :roll:


However I still think that Yamato has a far greater survivability than Kirishima.
She still may be sunk, but not IMHO without surviving long enough sink an enemy or to inflict a lot of damage against any US BB.
Olivier

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LWD
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Re: Alternative story for the battleship Yamato???

Post by LWD » 28 Aug 2009 14:34

mescal wrote:...However I still think that Yamato has a far greater survivability than Kirishima.....
There's no question about that however Kirishima took a real pounding and in a pretty short period of time. Yamato being a bigger target with a bigger radar signature would likely have recieved even more hits. Indeed SoDak might have actually got some. Take a look at:
http://www.navweaps.com/index_lundgren/ ... alysis.pdf
For an updated analysis of what happened to Kirishima.

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