1939 - Polish/German Alliance

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Tim Smith
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Post by Tim Smith » 11 Feb 2003 12:48

A good website on the history of Danzig (non-biased).

Shows that Poles were a minority in the Free City between the wars, hence Danzig's German character, but at the end of WWII the Red Army drove nearly all the German population out and gave the city to Poland.

http://stabi.hs-bremerhaven.de/whkmla/r ... anzig.html

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peter_suciu
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Post by peter_suciu » 11 Feb 2003 16:52

Proof regarding Hitler's view of Poland as a 'potential' ally.
That isn't proof...because the same sentence says that Hitler wouldn't form an alliance with Italy, yet he not only formed an alliance with Mussolini but he basically rescued him time and time again. Hitler didn't look at the big picture, which is that you make alliances with nations based on your needs at the time...not on past wars.

If England had still been mad that they lost Calias to the French, then they would never be an ally of theirs in World War I or World War II. England turned to France around 1900 because the Kaiser wanted a fleet, thus England abandoned Turkey as France was sided with Russia. This pushed the Turks -- traditional English allies -- to the Germans, the other traditional English allies.

Look at the sides who fought in the Napoleonic Wars...which could be seen as a World War of sorts. The German states including Prussia, England and Austria against France with Russia going back and forth. England and France defended poor Turkey only 40 years later against Russia, etc.

So this is only proof that Hitler was petty and stupid in his planning. Not that a treaty was impossible.

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Starinov
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Post by Starinov » 11 Feb 2003 17:46

For peter_suciu

Right, Stalin so trusted Hitler that on August 19th he decided to sign the pact which allowed Germany to attack Poland ans start a war with the west. Stalin made Hitler look like a scapegoat. But of course he trusted him...


Joseph Stalin's Speech delivered on August 19th 1939 at meeting of the Politburo of the CC WKP( b )

The war or peace question enters, for us, in a critical phase. If we sign a treaty of mutual aid with France and Great Britain, Germany will abandon Poland and will look for a modus vivendi with the western countries. We shall push war aside but, in the future, the events can take a dangerous turn for the USSR. If we accept Germany's proposition and sign a non-aggression pact with her, Germany, off course, will attack Poland and, then, the entering the war of France and Great Britain will be inevitable. Western Europe will be touched by grave instabilities and demonstrations. In these conditions, we shall have much more luck staying away from the conflict and enter the war at the moment convenient for.

The experience of the last twenty years demonstrates that in peace period, a communist movement in Europe strong enough so that Bolshevik party can take the power is impossible. The dictatorship of the party is possible only as a result of a great war. We shall make our own decision: it is clear. We should accept the proposition of Germany and dismiss politely the French delegation. The first profit which will be granted to us will be the destruction of Poland until the suburbs of Warsaw, including Ukrainian Galicia.

Germany will grant us a free total action in the Baltic States and will not oppose if Bessarabia returns within the borders of the USSR. She is ready to leave Rumania, Bulgaria and Hungary in our sphere of influence. The problem of Yugoslavia remains opened … At the same time, we should foresee the consequences ensuing from a possible defeat of Germany as well as its possible victory. In the case of a defeat, a sovietisation of Germany will take place and a communist government will be created. We are not allowed to forget that sovietised Germany will be in great danger if this sovietisation was to be a consequence of the defeat of Germany in a short war. England and France will be still not strong enough to occupy Berlin and destroy sovietised Germany. We, on the other hand, shall not be capable of helping our Bolshevik comrades in Germany.

So, our work will consist of making sure that Germany will be able to lead a war as long as possible so that, England and France, tired and destroyed, could overcome sovietised Germany. The USSR, always staying neutral and waiting for a convenient moment, will grant assistant to contemporary Germany by delivering her raw materials and foodstuffs. It remains clear, however, that our help will not exceed certain measures, it could indeed destabilize our economy and weaken the power of our army.

We shall have, at the same time, lead an active communist propaganda in the English-French block, especially in France. We should be ready that, in this country, in wartime, the party will be obliged to abandon its legal activities and to pass in the conspiration. We know that this will ask for many sacrifices but our French comrades will not hesitate. Their purpose will be, above all, the demoralization of the army and the police. If this first work will be correctly made, the safety of Soviet Germany will be assured what, afterward, will facilitate the sovietisation of France.

For these plans to be realized, it is indispensable that the war lasts as long as possible and it is at its end that all our forces in Western Europe and in the Balkans must be used. Let us look now at the second eventuality, that is of the German victory. Some are of opinion that such a possibility is a real danger for us. This opinion contains a tiny part of the truth but it would be an error to think that this danger can be so close and so big, as think of it some people. If Germany gains a victory, she will go out of the war too much destroyed to begin an armed conflict with the USSR, at least in the next ten years.

The major concern of Germany will be an attentive observation of England and France to prevent their revival. On the other hand, victorious Germany will take up enormous territories and, during decades, will be occupied by their exploitation and the establishment of a German order. It is evident that Germany will be too much occupied elsewhere to turn against us. A matter that will still benefit our security. In defeated France, the French Communist Party will always be very strong. The communist revolution will certainly take place and we can exploit these events by bringing our assistant to France and make her our ally. Later, all the countries which will be under "the protective wing" of Germany will also become our allies. They will open in front of us of vast perspectives aiming at establishing a World Revolution.

Comrades! It is in the interest of the USSR, Homeland of the Laborious Masses, that a war between the Reich and the English-French capitalist block bursts. It is necessary to make the necessities so that this war lasts as long as possible so that both parties destroy themselves mutually. It is for this reason that we should agree and sign the pact proposed by Germany, to make sure that this war, when it will be declared, will last as long as possible. It will be necessary to strengthen the propaganda activities in the belligerent countries so that we are ready when this war will end.
Source: USSR's Special Collection Archive - Russian Centre for Archived Documents and New History Studies ( RCChIDNI), group 7, register 1, file 1223.

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Post by Kullman » 11 Feb 2003 18:15

I've skimmed some of the longer stuff posted here on this what if. All I can add is that if Germany and Poland were to have formed an allience, Germany would have wanted all its former territory back from Poland; which wasn't even a country in WWI. Not only would the Polish boarder change, but eventually all the Jews and Slovs that lived there would be forced out --- assuming the war went well for the Axis.

The only way Poland could gain territory lost to Germany would be expansion to the East. But Hitler planned to expand to the East for his Volk. So Poland would be shrunk even smaller and in time disappear as a nation.

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Musashi
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Post by Musashi » 11 Feb 2003 18:48

Tim Smith wrote:A good website on the history of Danzig (non-biased).

Shows that Poles were a minority in the Free City between the wars, hence Danzig's German character, but at the end of WWII the Red Army drove nearly all the German population out and gave the city to Poland.

http://stabi.hs-bremerhaven.de/whkmla/r ... anzig.html
Hola gringo!
You don't know the world you are living. Is Danzig for you a German city, because the Poles was minority there?
Danzig (GDANSK in Polish!) has been MUCH longer Polish than German.
In 1308 Poland was partitioned and Gdansk was attacked by Branderburgs (Germans). Polish king asked Teutonic Knights for help. They agreed and overcame Brandenburgs, but "in the addition" slaughtered ALL the Poles in Gdansk (40000 persons) and took the city.
Since then German "history" of the city began. Then we gain Gdansk back and it was always Polish (until 1793). However the Germans started to settle it and sometimes were in majority.
What do you think about Northern Ireland? Is it British, because they are in mayority there??? NO WAY! Its historic Irish land. Ok, MAN?
Soon the British will be in minority there, because they haven't enough number of kids. What about immigrants' quarters in many British cities? Should be Pakistan or India there, because the imigrants are in mayority??? What if the Chinese "sent" 100 million people to the UK? They would be in mayority there. So should whole UK belong to China???roll:

I have met many fine people from the UK on the forum. I respect them and I don't want to offend them, but you made me very irritable. If somebody doesn't know the subject he shouldn't discuss about it.
I have changed the post to more cultural version.

Saludo y buenas noches 8)
Last edited by Musashi on 11 Feb 2003 22:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Ogorek
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Post by Ogorek » 11 Feb 2003 20:29

Tim Smith.....

Thank you for your links to the Danzig/Gdansk website. My father grew up in neighboring Gdynia, and I am fascinated by anything to do with the region. Many of the stories that my father told me long ago about Gdansk pop-up in small ways in Gunter Grass's writing. The color photos on the site are excellent.

This is/was an interesting and good thread, save for one less mature remarks posted..... Thank you to all the grown-ups who posted here, and especially to Maus who started it (no, I don't think an alliance was at all possible)..... Welcome to the forum..

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Victor
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Post by Victor » 11 Feb 2003 21:34

peter_suciu wrote: 4) The Poles would have probably done better than the Italians or Romanians in the East. The Italians actually took part in the last cavalry charge and if the Poles were used in mobile situations with their cavalry it could work.
And what makes you say that?
peter_suciu wrote: Germany would need another tactic like offering a portion of Romania or perhaps offering part of the Baltic States.
Actually they did. It's called the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact. :wink:
Last edited by Victor on 12 Feb 2003 13:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Musashi
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Post by Musashi » 11 Feb 2003 23:10

Its really good Poland was not the German ally. For Hitler the Poles were "Untermenschen". Don't you know "Mein Kampf" and what Mr. Adolf thought about Poland? So how could you discuss about it? :D
Refusal of giving the Germans Gdansk was unwise? Perharps it was but it was no choice. First somebody want a finger and later whole hand. Polish politicians knew about it very well. Not all what is honourable must be wise. The policy of British prime minister Chamberlain was VERY unwise. That's pitty Churchill replaced him so late :( .

Best regards

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Tim Smith
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Post by Tim Smith » 12 Feb 2003 01:01

Maybe you're misunderstanding me, Musashi.

I'm not saying that Poland should have joined the Axis, no way! Hitler was an evil monster that had to be stopped and destroyed.

All I'm saying is that Poland did have the OPTION of joining the Axis, and being treated the same as Slovakia, Hungary and Rumania. But to their eternal credit Poland refused Hitler and went down fighting.

As for Danzig/Gdansk, what I've read seems to indicate that it started out as Polish, but the Teutonic Knights/Prussians took it over periodically, and for long periods it was an independent Hanseatic free city, dominated by rich German merchants. In 1815 it was given to Prussia as a reward for fighting Napoleon, and was part of Prussia until 1919. So, in the last 100 years before WWI, it was German territory. Which makes it understandable that the Nazis wanted it back.

As you pointed out, there is a parallel with Northern Ireland, which geographically should be part of Eire, but is British since the majority of the people living there do not want to leave the UK. Then there's Gibraltar, which should be part of Spain historically and geographically, but is British and will remain so. Even the Falkland Islands are Argentinian geographically, being almost as far from Britain as it is possible to get, but all the people living there are British, which is why we fought for it in 1982.

I'm afraid that you cannot simply ignore the effect of the Kingdom of Poland losing a couple of wars in the 17th and 18th centuries, and ended up missing from the map of Europe until 1919, even though the Polish people survived. Because of that several other ethnic groups settled on Polish land. The past defeats of Poland or any other European nation cannot be reversed as though they had never been.

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of history, it is the wishes of the people of today that matter.

Musashi wrote:Its really good Poland was not the German ally. For Hitler the Poles were "Untermenschen". Don't you know "Mein Kampf" and what Mr. Adolf thought about Poland? So how could you discuss about it? :D
Refusal of giving the Germans Gdansk was unwise? Perharps it was but it was no choice. First somebody want a finger and later whole hand. Polish politicians knew about it very well. Not all what is honourable must be wise. The policy of British prime minister Chamberlain was VERY unwise. That's pitty Churchill replaced him so late :( .

Best regards

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Musashi
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Post by Musashi » 12 Feb 2003 21:18

Victor wrote: 4) The Poles would have probably done better than the Italians or Romanians in the East. The Italians actually took part in the last cavalry charge and if the Poles were used in mobile situations with their cavalry it could work.
Some people thinks the Rumanian troops did not fight enough hard in WW II. Its not true. It depended who was their opponent. For example the Rumanians fought very bravely against Hungarians in Budapest in 1945. The same Hungarians. They fought very bravely against Rumanians and not so hardly against the Soviets. Both Rumanians and Hungarians suffered very high casualties.
The Poles could have similar situation: in the plans of Warsaw Pact they would have attacked Danemark. That was very unwise from the Soviet side to give the Poles such task. Poland had never been in state of war with Danemark and the Poles have nothing against them. So the Poles wouldn't have fought so fiercely against the Danes as for example against the Germans.

Best regards.

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Musashi
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Post by Musashi » 12 Feb 2003 21:52

Tim Smith wrote:Maybe you're misunderstanding me, Musashi.

I'm not saying that Poland should have joined the Axis, no way! Hitler was an evil monster that had to be stopped and destroyed.

All I'm saying is that Poland did have the OPTION of joining the Axis, and being treated the same as Slovakia, Hungary and Rumania. But to their eternal credit Poland refused Hitler and went down fighting.

As for Danzig/Gdansk, what I've read seems to indicate that it started out as Polish, but the Teutonic Knights/Prussians took it over periodically, and for long periods it was an independent Hanseatic free city, dominated by rich German merchants. In 1815 it was given to Prussia as a reward for fighting Napoleon, and was part of Prussia until 1919. So, in the last 100 years before WWI, it was German territory. Which makes it understandable that the Nazis wanted it back.

As you pointed out, there is a parallel with Northern Ireland, which geographically should be part of Eire, but is British since the majority of the people living there do not want to leave the UK. Then there's Gibraltar, which should be part of Spain historically and geographically, but is British and will remain so. Even the Falkland Islands are Argentinian geographically, being almost as far from Britain as it is possible to get, but all the people living there are British, which is why we fought for it in 1982.

I'm afraid that you cannot simply ignore the effect of the Kingdom of Poland losing a couple of wars in the 17th and 18th centuries, and ended up missing from the map of Europe until 1919, even though the Polish people survived. Because of that several other ethnic groups settled on Polish land. The past defeats of Poland or any other European nation cannot be reversed as though they had never been.

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of history, it is the wishes of the people of today that matter.

Musashi wrote:Its really good Poland was not the German ally. For Hitler the Poles were "Untermenschen". Don't you know "Mein Kampf" and what Mr. Adolf thought about Poland? So how could you discuss about it? :D
Refusal of giving the Germans Gdansk was unwise? Perharps it was but it was no choice. First somebody want a finger and later whole hand. Polish politicians knew about it very well. Not all what is honourable must be wise. The policy of British prime minister Chamberlain was VERY unwise. That's pitty Churchill replaced him so late :( .

Best regards
Ok, no problem.
However I suppose you don't understand Polish mentality. It would be unhonourable to become a dog of somebody who piss on you and for who
you are "Untermann" (worse than animal). For honourabe people a term "short" time ally don't exsist. A possible situation is: or be an (REAL) ally ever to the bitter end or to be not at all. I know some people don't understand it. And I repeat what is honourable is not always wise.
Best regards.

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Musashi
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Post by Musashi » 12 Feb 2003 21:53

Tim Smith wrote:Maybe you're misunderstanding me, Musashi.

I'm not saying that Poland should have joined the Axis, no way! Hitler was an evil monster that had to be stopped and destroyed.

All I'm saying is that Poland did have the OPTION of joining the Axis, and being treated the same as Slovakia, Hungary and Rumania. But to their eternal credit Poland refused Hitler and went down fighting.

As for Danzig/Gdansk, what I've read seems to indicate that it started out as Polish, but the Teutonic Knights/Prussians took it over periodically, and for long periods it was an independent Hanseatic free city, dominated by rich German merchants. In 1815 it was given to Prussia as a reward for fighting Napoleon, and was part of Prussia until 1919. So, in the last 100 years before WWI, it was German territory. Which makes it understandable that the Nazis wanted it back.

As you pointed out, there is a parallel with Northern Ireland, which geographically should be part of Eire, but is British since the majority of the people living there do not want to leave the UK. Then there's Gibraltar, which should be part of Spain historically and geographically, but is British and will remain so. Even the Falkland Islands are Argentinian geographically, being almost as far from Britain as it is possible to get, but all the people living there are British, which is why we fought for it in 1982.

I'm afraid that you cannot simply ignore the effect of the Kingdom of Poland losing a couple of wars in the 17th and 18th centuries, and ended up missing from the map of Europe until 1919, even though the Polish people survived. Because of that several other ethnic groups settled on Polish land. The past defeats of Poland or any other European nation cannot be reversed as though they had never been.

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of history, it is the wishes of the people of today that matter.

Musashi wrote:Its really good Poland was not the German ally. For Hitler the Poles were "Untermenschen". Don't you know "Mein Kampf" and what Mr. Adolf thought about Poland? So how could you discuss about it? :D
Refusal of giving the Germans Gdansk was unwise? Perharps it was but it was no choice. First somebody want a finger and later whole hand. Polish politicians knew about it very well. Not all what is honourable must be wise. The policy of British prime minister Chamberlain was VERY unwise. That's pitty Churchill replaced him so late :( .

Best regards
Ok, no problem.
However I suppose you don't understand Polish mentality. It would be unhonourable to become a dog of somebody who piss on you and for who
you are "Untermann" (worse than animal). For honourabe people a term "short time ally" does not exsist. The possible situations are: to be an (REAL) ally even to the bitter end, or not to be at all. I know some people don't understand it. And I repeat what is honourable not always must be wise.
Best regards.

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