USN and RN clash in WW1

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Roddoss72
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Re: USN and RN clash in WW1

#16

Post by Roddoss72 » 16 Jul 2010, 16:32

Baltasar wrote:
BDV wrote: The mouth of Saint Lawrence and Vancouver are "several" thousands of miles away from US bases?!?

Erm... May be I'm misreading something here, but....
Roddoss wrote: In turn the US begins to place their own blockade on Britian, this is helped by the addtition of the German navy and the Germans and American begin to work in co-operation with each other.
I would be interested in seeing your logistical planning by the USN for supplying its blockading forces some several thousand miles from its home bases.

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Andy H
Baltasar

As with everything the concept of a naval blockade by USN and Imperial German Navy is not set in stone, it was just a thought, it may have highly improbable, but not impossible to do, there is another way about this and that the USN is used to provide heavy escort of armed convoys to Germany, although not directly doing so USA does not declare war on Britain per se, but acts as a neutral belligerant, and any attempt to interdict the convoys would be repulsed with deadly force, with a direction from President Woodrow Wilson that the USN is not to shoot first but if fired upon, she is to respond with deadly force.

Regards

Roddoss72

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Re: USN and RN clash in WW1

#17

Post by Roddoss72 » 16 Jul 2010, 16:36

Baltasar wrote:
Roddoss72 wrote:
I have just seen a site which indicates that as of August 1914 the USN can supply at least 12 Battleships, 20 Cruisers and 20 Destroyers, these ships would operate out of Germany and work with the Imperial German Navy.
And that source is where exactly?

Not to mention that the US would have no intend at all to put their ships under German command. They'd rather try to annoy the Brits (and possibly French) where they could hurt them easier. Carribic sea, South American outposts, the Far east. It would simply be more sensible to to that instead of trying to get into a fight with what was probably the single most powerful navy in the world at that time, let alone in their home waters.

The site is http://www.worldwar1atsea.net


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Re: USN and RN clash in WW1

#18

Post by Tim Smith » 16 Jul 2010, 16:42

Roddoss72 wrote: I have just seen a site which indicates that as of August 1914 the USN can supply at least 12 Battleships, 20 Cruisers and 20 Destroyers, these ships would operate out of Germany and work with the Imperial German Navy.
How is the US fleet supposed to reach Germany?

If the US is at war with Britain, and tries to rebase in Kiel, then it has to sail from the Atlantic through the North Sea to do so. Probably via the Denmark Strait, since the southern route, south of Iceland, is closer to Scapa Flow.

And the British Grand Fleet is going to try and intercept. The US Fleet will face a huge Jutland-style battle before it even reaches Germany. Unless, of course, the High Seas Fleet sails from Germany in support, and the British choose to intercept the German fleet first. Either way, I think the Grand Fleet can hit either the Americans or the Germans before the two hostile fleets link up.

Personally, if I were First Sea Lord, I'd hit the Americans first, since the Germans are more likely to do a feint and run back to port when challenged. Also, given the American fleet size you posted, the American fleet will be smaller than the German one and thus an easier target to destroy.

The Americans will have to be very lucky or very clever to reach Germany with their fleet intact.

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Re: USN and RN clash in WW1

#19

Post by Roddoss72 » 16 Jul 2010, 17:05

Tim Smith wrote:
Roddoss72 wrote: I have just seen a site which indicates that as of August 1914 the USN can supply at least 12 Battleships, 20 Cruisers and 20 Destroyers, these ships would operate out of Germany and work with the Imperial German Navy.
How is the US fleet supposed to reach Germany?

If the US is at war with Britain, and tries to rebase in Kiel, then it has to sail from the Atlantic through the North Sea to do so. Probably via the Denmark Strait, since the southern route, south of Iceland, is closer to Scapa Flow.

And the British Grand Fleet is going to try and intercept. The US Fleet will face a huge Jutland-style battle before it even reaches Germany. Unless, of course, the High Seas Fleet sails from Germany in support, and the British choose to intercept the German fleet first. Either way, I think the Grand Fleet can hit either the Americans or the Germans before the two hostile fleets link up.

Personally, if I were First Sea Lord, I'd hit the Americans first, since the Germans are more likely to do a feint and run back to port when challenged. Also, given the American fleet size you posted, the American fleet will be smaller than the German one and thus an easier target to destroy.

The Americans will have to be very lucky or very clever to reach Germany with their fleet intact.
They can do what you suggest, but, as the Grand Fleet is engaged with the USN the High Seas Fleet shows up and the two forces have the Grand Fleet trapped and they go about smashing the Grand Fleet to salt spray.

Plus one thing that some here forget, the USA is an industrial powerhouse, Britain can never match the US in producing ships and also replace losses, this is combination with Germany producing her own ships, the capacity of the two alone would outstrip Britain at a guess be three to one, eventually Britain will lose its superiority, she would have to recall more and more ships from other theatres, she would have to leave the Falklands for good, handing it back to Argentina, she would have to leave the Carribean, but the most impact would be that she would have to leave the Mediterannean.

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Re: USN and RN clash in WW1

#20

Post by Tim Smith » 16 Jul 2010, 17:24

Roddoss72 wrote: They can do what you suggest, but, as the Grand Fleet is engaged with the USN the High Seas Fleet shows up and the two forces have the Grand Fleet trapped and they go about smashing the Grand Fleet to salt spray.
Rather unlikely since the likely interception point (of the US fleet) will be north-east of the Shetland Islands. That is more than twice as distant from the German bases as the historical location of the Battle of Jutland (level with northern Denmark.) So Jellicoe will have twice as much time to react and get his fleet in position. This battle will take place close to the British base at Scapa Flow, rather than close to the German base at Wilhelmshaven. This is the Grand Fleet's back yard.

It's not at all likely IMO that the Americans and Germans will catch the British fleet by surprise.

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Re: USN and RN clash in WW1

#21

Post by Tim Smith » 16 Jul 2010, 17:27

Roddoss72 wrote:Plus one thing that some here forget, the USA is an industrial powerhouse, Britain can never match the US in producing ships and also replace losses, this is combination with Germany producing her own ships, the capacity of the two alone would outstrip Britain at a guess be three to one
Eventually, yes, but building a capital ship takes 2-3 YEARS. That's a long time during a war. A decisive naval battle is likely to take place long before the US or German fleets get any substantial reinforcements from what they started with.

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Re: USN and RN clash in WW1

#22

Post by Roddoss72 » 16 Jul 2010, 17:45

Tim Smith wrote:
Roddoss72 wrote:Plus one thing that some here forget, the USA is an industrial powerhouse, Britain can never match the US in producing ships and also replace losses, this is combination with Germany producing her own ships, the capacity of the two alone would outstrip Britain at a guess be three to one
Eventually, yes, but building a capital ship takes 2-3 YEARS. That's a long time during a war. A decisive naval battle is likely to take place long before the US or German fleets get any substantial reinforcements from what they started with.
So what you are saying that it become a battle of attritain. One Britain can never win. Or are you indicating that Britain can defeat both the USA and Cental Powers all by herself.

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Re: USN and RN clash in WW1

#23

Post by Baltasar » 16 Jul 2010, 18:01

Instead of putting words in other people's mouthes, read what they wrote.

Britain could not outbuild the US. But her navy was a lot bigger than that of US at that time. The RN could rather easily defeat whatever the US sent towards Europe initially and then start blockading the US east coast. Or even shell cities and the such. A risk no US president would want to take. If the US ships are sunk, they're caught pants down along their whole coast. With a potentially hostile nation on their northern border and god knows what happens if the Mexicans try to get that damn New Mexico and California back.

Sending the US fleet towards Europe is a no-go in this scenario is a no-go.

Frankly, the chance of the US and Britain slogging it out in the Atlantic is a snowballs chance in hell. Actually, rather less than that. The chance of Britain wanting to add a country like the US to the list of their war enemies is zero. If the US rattle with their sabres loud enough, the Brits will carve in and try to outbid the Central Powers, even though that was not the preferred British tactic.

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Re: USN and RN clash in WW1

#24

Post by Baltasar » 16 Jul 2010, 18:04

Roddoss72 wrote: As with everything the concept of a naval blockade by USN and Imperial German Navy is not set in stone, it was just a thought, it may have highly improbable, but not impossible to do,
It acutally is quite impossible if one spent a few seconds thinking about it. The reasons are given above.
there is another way about this and that the USN is used to provide heavy escort of armed convoys to Germany, although not directly doing so USA does not declare war on Britain per se, but acts as a neutral belligerant, and any attempt to interdict the convoys would be repulsed with deadly force, with a direction from President Woodrow Wilson that the USN is not to shoot first but if fired upon, she is to respond with deadly force.
That is actually a more realistic possibility. The US would not send heavy units, just destroyers and may be a light cruiser or two. They wouldn't stand a chance against even a moderate squadron of the RN, but if the RN fired upon the armed US ships, they'd create a very, very serious situation for the UK.

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Re: USN and RN clash in WW1

#25

Post by maltesefalcon » 16 Jul 2010, 18:06

Let me cite a couple examples.

The Trent Affair during the American Civil War caused friction between the UK and the North
The sinking of Reuben James in 1941 did not immediately lead to war vs Germany.
Nor did loss of US lives on Lusitania although one could safely argue it was not a US vessel.

But the loss of USS Maine did lead to war with Spain.

Maybe the issue would depend on whether the US was preparing itself for war with Britain and this would be the catalyst.

It would also depend on the timing. Can't see this happening after summer 1916 when the Allies were doing some tough fighting. Last thing they needed was another enemy.

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Re: USN and RN clash in WW1

#26

Post by Tim Smith » 16 Jul 2010, 18:19

If the war lasts until 1919-1920, then yes, Germany and the US will probably defeat Britain. It would take America about 4 years following her declaration of war (in 1915) to build up a fleet of 20+ dreadnaughts.

The US Navy's best bet is to not go anywhere near Europe until at least 1919. Until then just operate near North and South America, concentrating on operations against Canada and in the Pacific.

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Re: USN and RN clash in WW1

#27

Post by LWD » 16 Jul 2010, 18:20

If the US goes to war with Great Britain she can probably do more good snapping up various British colonies in the Carribean and forcing Canada out of the war either through negotiation or invasion. At that point she's better off turning her interest to the far east. This strains the British even more while not risking the US battle fleet much. Cutting off supplies from North America and cutting down on those from Latin American would also have considerable impact. If and when Russia goes neutral the US can also supply Germany via Russia. I don't see how it would come about as it would also mean considerable negative impact on the US economy.

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Re: USN and RN clash in WW1

#28

Post by phylo_roadking » 16 Jul 2010, 18:44

Just to return for a moment to the Asama maru inciden....this was "tried in the court of public opinion" all right, with the British Embassy in Japan being besieged by irate crowds etc.

The legal decision afterwards (LONG after the British agreed to hand the men back) wasn't that they were wrong/breaking the law in stopping and searching the Asama Maru for contraband....it turned on the definition of men as "contraband"!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: The court decided they were perfectly at liberty to stop-and-search in international waters - but the civilian sailors/reserve military personnel were only VERY tentatively identifiable as contraband.
Last edited by phylo_roadking on 16 Jul 2010, 21:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: USN and RN clash in WW1

#29

Post by LWD » 16 Jul 2010, 19:01

Indeed stopping and searching was not considered a problem. Even removing official wasn't from what I recall. The question narrowed down to as you say where the line was between civilian and official. There's also a pretty strong implication if it doesn't state it out right that had the Japanese captain not stopped the British could legitimtly have opened fire on the ship.

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Re: USN and RN clash in WW1

#30

Post by BDV » 16 Jul 2010, 19:22

Oh, the British can stop the US vessels and search to their hearts' content.

It is when they try to impound the ship or its cargo under the reason of "contraband" that the US government has the choice of acquiescing - or not - with the action. In particular when the material at hand is on the non-contraband list, or on the conditional contraband list.
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