USN and RN clash in WW1

[Markus Becker]

Might makes right. But 1915 America was not as powerful as 1956 America.

In 1915, America is only a Great Power, not a superpower. And in 1915, Britain is a Great Power too. The two are roughly equal.

So just as America in 1956 could not impose its will on Russia, 1915 America cannot impose its will on Britain. Britain at this time is too powerful to be bullied into changing its policies.

Yes, the two are roughly equal but the UK is neck deep in a confrontation with Germany and not making any headway. The USA isn´t. And the USA got money and resources the UK needs badly. The threat of a Cash&Carry Law sould be enough to get the UK to understand the USA´s legal position is better not challanged.

And is the ASB-case of the USA joining the war on Germany´s side, the Entente might as well ask for terms right away.

[Andy H]

With the loss of the US markets for economic assistenc, it would fall on the rest of the British & French Empires to pick up the slack but also to increase the aid it recieved via Japan. Japanese exports quadrupled durin the war, and USN, given its major pre-0ccupation in the Atlantic in whatever form, would be hard pressed to achieve anything in the Pacific or Indian Oceans.

Somebody also mentioned the Allies losing the Med for some reason but I can't remember why this would have happened. Could anyone repraise that scenario for me please

Regards

Andy H

[Andy H]

In regards to a US Fleet/Sqn heading to Germany, I would let them sail through without any issue from the Grand Fleet. Maybe a few RN/Fra submarines could be used to attack as and when, given the USN DD's will be non existent. From that point on the US assets, just like their German brethren would be bottled up in the German ports.

Regards

Andy H

[Roddoss72]

With the loss of the US markets for economic assistenc, it would fall on the rest of the British & French Empires to pick up the slack but also to increase the aid it recieved via Japan. Japanese exports quadrupled durin the war, and USN, given its major pre-0ccupation in the Atlantic in whatever form, would be hard pressed to achieve anything in the Pacific or Indian Oceans.

Somebody also mentioned the Allies losing the Med for some reason but I can't remember why this would have happened. Could anyone repraise that scenario for me please

Regards

Andy H

It was me that put that scenario up. My POV is that once the US begins to ramp up production of her naval capabilities, she begins to outstrip Britain i naval production, some indicate that it takes 3 years for this to happen so having a start date of mid 1916, that means that by the US naval slipways are almost at full capacity in building ships, by 1920/21 if WW1 is going that long, the US now out guns the RN in almost every aspect, Britain's capacity to build ships would be drastically cut. Plus with America as an ally or at least a neutral belligerant, Germany can operate submarine unrestricted warfare without having the Americans to worry about.

My POV is this by 1919-21 the RN can't match it with the combined strength of the UNS and IGN (Imperial German Navy) within home waters, meaning that Britain can't keep up with the losses sustained after continous battle, German and US cooperation has now achieved superiority. Britain must make a desperate recall of many of the fleets she has scattered around the world, and this begins with the recall of the closest units and they being in the Mediterannean, Britain must keep the sea lanes open and this means the southern approaches, to do this bases at Gibraltar aren't close enough, these naval units would have to be relocated at French Channel Coast or Southern England.

But the RN maybe able to at the very least keep the barest of skeleton forces within the Mediterannean, but the Royal Italian Navy and French Navy can take up the slack, in reallity the Austro-Hungarian and Turkish Navies aren't any real threat, so the RN ecacutaion is not a substantial loss. But here is the kicker in all of this, once the ascendenacy of the US and German Fleets has been reached, then by late 1921 the US and German Navies may launch operations into the Mediterannean, and if that happens, then i can't see the Italian and French Navies lasting that long.

[Baltasar]

All that is assuming that both, the US and Uk were run by howling madmen, who were desperate to get their people slaughtered in rather vast quantities and that the collective Royal Navy would be pleased to sit on their hands while watching the US gearing up and the Central Powers participating in the continued rehearsals of Entente attacks while sitting idle as well, although their eastern forces would be largely unemployed by the end of 1917.

[BDV]

All that is assuming that both, the US and Uk were run by howling madmen, who were desperate to get their people slaughtered in rather vast quantities ...

Ahem.

There's good reason conscription was abolished in many countries. IIRC large quantities of young, physically fit citizens conscripts did end up slaughtered in vast quantities during and in the decades following WWI.

Politicians mostly behaved towards the conscript armies with the attitude expounded by Mrs. Maddie Albright - "What good is it if you cannot use it?"

[Roddoss72]

All that is assuming that both, the US and Uk were run by howling madmen, who were desperate to get their people slaughtered in rather vast quantities and that the collective Royal Navy would be pleased to sit on their hands while watching the US gearing up and the Central Powers participating in the continued rehearsals of Entente attacks while sitting idle as well, although their eastern forces would be largely unemployed by the end of 1917.

Stay on topic, the thread is that of naval clashes between the USN and the RN. Just to answer your above non sensical response, i seriously doubt that the Royal Navy command would simply sit on their hands. You are stating for the record that Britain wont interdict any US convoy to Germany. Britain wont defend a blockade it herself enacted. US covoys make it to Germany unmolested.

You are stating that Britain's top brass is completely happy to allow arms shipments to be allowed to offload in Germany and that this eventually lead to the untold slaughter of millions of its own troops and allied troops as well.

[Baltasar]

Stay on topic, the thread is that of naval clashes between the USN and the RN.

The chances of the US and the UK slugging it out old style over a mere trade issue is non-existing. Even more so if the UK are already very busy echxanging rudnesses with the Germans all across Flanders while being simultaneously engaged in a staring contest with the Kaisers fancy toys, better known as the High Seas Fleet.

i seriously doubt that the Royal Navy command would simply sit on their hands

If the RN decided to actually do something, the US east coast will be one big target practise area. Having a look at where the majority of US shipyards are, that would have a slightly disrupting effect on the US fleet building program, which in turn would also slightly delay your envisaged completion date of 1920/21. By, say, 2-3 years?

You are stating for the record that Britain wont interdict any US convoy to Germany. Britain wont defend a blockade it herself enacted. US covoys make it to Germany unmolested.

You are stating that Britain's top brass is completely happy to allow arms shipments to be allowed to offload in Germany and that this eventually lead to the untold slaughter of millions of its own troops and allied troops as well.

You are conveniently ignoring that I also assume that such an escort deter the UK from searching the ships. It would also deter them from picking a fight with the US Navy. In the end, without the US joining the Entente, the latter will ask for negotiations sooner than later, facing the Central Powers in France and Italy and having the US defending free and uninterrupted trade at point blank range, they won't have much of a choice.

In case of the US so much as threatening to cough in the direction of London, this would cause a whole series of sneezes, running noses and headaches within the UK top brass, especially once Russia leaves the international competetition on who gets more men killed by a foreign power. In that situation, the whole potential of facing the Huns in France, the Austrians in Italy and the US in... whereever they chose to have a party, is so desasterous that the UK and especially France will want to get out of the whole affair right there and then.

Bottom line being: The potential material damage to the Entente war effort was so huge, the Entente wanted to avoid such a threat to materialize at virtually any cost. The US forces could easily occupy the Entente colonies in the Carribean Sea and the nothern parts of South America. With a little preparation, Pacific islands and Far East posessions would be within reach. Canada would be prone to recall her units from abroad and that would likely not be enough to stop the neighbours with the weird accents, thus removing Canada from the list of belligerents and depriving the French battlefield of four (Canadian) divisions. And all these are just the short term effects.

[Baltasar]

All that is assuming that both, the US and Uk were run by howling madmen, who were desperate to get their people slaughtered in rather vast quantities ...

Ahem.

There's good reason conscription was abolished in many countries. IIRC large quantities of young, physically fit citizens conscripts did end up slaughtered in vast quantities during and in the decades following WWI.

Politicians mostly behaved towards the conscript armies with the attitude expounded by Mrs. Maddie Albright - "What good is it if you cannot use it?"

BDV, the moral issues using a professional army are probably a lot lower than using a conscript army. At least that has been one of the arguments for keeping conscription over here.

[cormallen]

I am confused, anglophobic wet-dreams aside, what possible long term strategic benefit is there for America in helping the Kaiser make europe into a Prussian petting zoo?

If the USN helps the Germans to break the British, Russian and French Empires and take over (and subsequently 'ethnically cleanse' in some fashion?) large swathes of eastern and western Europe
all it gets is a huge germanic euro-empire with a stated interest in global domination?

What possible advantage is that for the USA ??

[Andy H]

Reading back through this thread I think it has come to a natural end, given the views held.

I will leave with this final statement by the USN's senior Admiral, William S Benson, Chief of Naval Operations:-

Don't let the British pull the wool over your eyes (Talking to Read-Admiral Sims on his way to the UK, March 1917). Its none of our business pulling their chestnuts out of the fire. We would as soon fight the British as the Germans

Regards and thanks to all that took part

Andy H