September 1943:successful "Tidal Wave" saves "Panther Wotan"

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Von Schadewald
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September 1943:successful "Tidal Wave" saves "Panther Wotan"

Post by Von Schadewald » 17 Jul 2010 23:16

In OTL, for the loss of 53 out of 162 B24s, 'Tidal Wave' caused
"no curtailment of overall product output, but a distinct cutback in Axis reserve petroleum capacity"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tidal_Wave

Image

WI, for the loss of another 50 more bombers, the operation severely dents Nazi oil output - by 50%.
This being August 1943, with the Germans being pushed back after July's failure of Kursk, the lack of oil forces even Hitler to realise that a Panther-Wotan line so far east is untenable, and he orders a general retreat.

By September the Germans are behind the Dnepr.

Having saved so many forces and with shortened supply lines, they bleed the Soviets white who are unable to cross, and any that do do are quickly destroyed.

Image

The Germans are still sitting ensconced on the Dnepr come D Day June 1944. Only a sooner fall of Leningard and a Soviet flanking from the north being able to threaten them.

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Baltasar
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Re: September 1943:successful "Tidal Wave" saves "Panther Wo

Post by Baltasar » 18 Jul 2010 13:04

WI, for the loss of another 50 more bombers, the operation severely dents Nazi oil output - by 50%.
And how would that happen exactly?
Having saved so many forces and with shortened supply lines, they bleed the Soviets white who are unable to cross, and any that do do are quickly destroyed.
How would the Axis manage to bleed the Soviets when they have scarcely any fuel to transport their troops and supplies, not to mention their tank divisions as fire brigades?

Von Schadewald
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Re: September 1943:successful "Tidal Wave" saves "Panther Wo

Post by Von Schadewald » 18 Jul 2010 13:30

Baltasar wrote:
WI, for the loss of another 50 more bombers, the operation severely dents Nazi oil output - by 50%.

And how would that happen exactly?

The Americans succeed in planting quite a few more 500lb bombs on those Ploesti refineries that in OTL went untouched.
Having saved so many forces and with shortened supply lines, they bleed the Soviets white who are unable to cross, and any that do do are quickly destroyed.
How would the Axis manage to bleed the Soviets when they have scarcely any fuel to transport their troops and supplies, not to mention their tank divisions as fire brigades?
The Germans are not out of fuel: just reduced. Sufficiently reduced that they are compelled to drastically shorten their supply lines immediately in August 1943.

Dave Bender
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Re: September 1943:successful "Tidal Wave" saves "Panther Wo

Post by Dave Bender » 18 Jul 2010 19:15

lack of oil forces even Hitler to realise that a Panther-Wotan line so far east is untenable, and he orders a general retreat.
Most Heer transport relied on railroads and horse drawn wagons just like WWI. Destroying a bit more vehicle fuel (not aviation fuel, which was synthetic) would make little difference.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: September 1943:successful "Tidal Wave" saves "Panther Wo

Post by Sid Guttridge » 18 Jul 2010 20:16

Why would one think that the loss of another fifty bombers would achieve this result?

Did Romania even produce 50% of Axis oil at this stage?

What-ifs are only worth investigating if they are based on a plausible premise. I don't think this is one.

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Andy H
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Re: September 1943:successful "Tidal Wave" saves "Panther Wo

Post by Andy H » 18 Jul 2010 20:51

Where is your POV on this von.S?

You've asked a rather sketchy WI without giving us any context of your own from which to debate.

Please comply with the WI Guidelines.

No further posts will allowed until we here from the thread author as to his POV. Any other posts posted before then will be removed, so please dont waste your time doing so.

Regards

Andy H

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