June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

[Jon G.]

The RN did move its Mediterranean fleet from Malta to Alexandria when Italy entered the war, so to all intents and purposes the RN was out of the central Med as a permanent force for anyone contemplating a surprise assault on Malta. That changed later - after Taranto, which basically split the RM in two, and Operation Compass, which made it possible to reach Malta from Cyrenaica.

What use would French tanks be in case the Italians invaded Malta? The main French asset in the Med was their fleet.

[Baltasar]

It's only with the benefit of hindsight that we can establish that Malta was important for the outcome of the North African campaign

Italy doesn't need hindsight. They just need to look at a map of the Mediterranean.

Malta is the only RN base in the central Med. Remove the RN base at Malta and the central Med becomes an Italian and/or French lake. That's why the RN spent so much effort building Malta into a major base over the years.

As for the French, the cream of the French Army was lost in Belgium including most of their armor. If they couldn't win with their armor intact the French certainly cannot win now. They are a spent force.

Seeing the effects of air forces, Italy should've thought about invading Malta at least after the fall of France. There would still have been time to do it and the RN had been withdrawn towards the ends of the med, making the way free for the Italian fleet to bombard the island. Whatever the British had or could have assambled on Malta, the Italians could have easily wiped those forces out. Literally every point on the island could be shot at by ship guns and the Brits also had no chance to fight back Italian planes. I wonder why they didn't attempt to invade that place, even as late as '42.

In fact, if Italy had been serious about turning the med into their own bathtub, they would've taken Corsica as well.

[Jon G.]

The point remains that whatever territorial gains Mussolini wanted - and I think Malta was rather far down that list - he wanted to get at the negotiation table.

[Gooner1]

Seeing the effects of air forces,

Such as the multi-hundred sortie aerial onslaught at Sedan, which inflicted a total of 56 casualties and failed to destroy a single pillbox.

[Baltasar]

Seeing the effects of air forces,

Such as the multi-hundred sortie aerial onslaught at Sedan, which inflicted a total of 56 casualties and failed to destroy a single pillbox.

Rather such as destroying the Polish air force in short order (although the Luftwaffe did have some aid in form of Polish AA forces) and successfully paving the way for the Panzer divisions in France.

[Baltasar]

The point remains that whatever territorial gains Mussolini wanted - and I think Malta was rather far down that list - he wanted to get at the negotiation table.

That's true, but if you're building an empire, you'll have to start somewhere. When it was obvious that the Italians were getting their arses handed to them in Africa, Mussolini still didn't bother attacking Malta. Why? It would have removed serious interdiction abilities of the British right at Italy's doorstep and we don't have to use hindsight at that point any more.

[Dave Bender]

What use would French tanks be in case the Italians invaded Malta? The main French asset in the Med was their fleet.

That misses the point entirely.

After the cream of the French Army was destroyed in Belgium there was little to prevent the Heer from over running France. Furthermore Britain (from the French point of view) has abandoned France to their fate during 1940 just as they did during the 1939 Saar offensive. Why should France get their fleet chewed up helping to defend Malta? The French fleet was one of the few strong bargaining chips that France had left at the armistice negotiations. It's also the only hope France has to defend their colonial empire from British, Japanese and Italian invasions.

[Jon G.]

Well, Mussolini certainly was busy building an empire, he apparently just didn't consider Malta a very necessary part of it. When he ran into trouble in North Africa, he had already exercised his idea on how to come out of the strategic deadwater following the non-events of a post-western campaign peace conference and Seelöwe, namely by attacking Greece.

I restate that Malta wasn't important in that scheme. If Graziani had managed to push all the way to the Nile, or if the British had asked for an armistice following the fall of France, nobody would have cared about Malta.

Of course it makes perfect sense to capture Malta in order to protect your line of supply and communications, but that would have meant preparing for a prolonged war with the British, and that wasn't what Mussolini had hoped for.

[Baltasar]

Jon, that's only true up until things in Africa started. The Italians and the Germans used considerable air forces to supress Malta airfields once things started to go wrong in North Africa. It would simply have been faster to invade that island and get rid of the British there once and for all. Even at that point they would've had the assets to do it.

[Jon G.]

What use would French tanks be in case the Italians invaded Malta? The main French asset in the Med was their fleet.

That misses the point entirely...

Well no, it's you missing the chronology of events entirely.

If you bothered to check, you'd find that the French were quite active against the Italians, however briefly, following the Dunkirk evacuation and Italy's entry into the war, but preceeding the French armistice.

For example, the French fleet bombarded Genoa, and the French air force also carried out numerous (although not very effective) raids against targets in Northern Italy. Also, French bombers flying from French North Africa launched a major raid against Trapani and Palermo on June 22nd and 23rd. Apparently there was also a joint French-British raid against Bardia sometime in late June.

Why do you think the Italians had to bargain for their own armistice with the French; particularly why do you think results were so modest compared to the German-French armistice?

EDITED to reply to Baltasar:

Jon, that's only true up until things in Africa started. The Italians and the Germans used considerable air forces to supress Malta airfields once things started to go wrong in North Africa. It would simply have been faster to invade that island and get rid of the British there once and for all. Even at that point they would've had the assets to do it.

Right, but that falls somewhat outside the timeframe offered here In any case, by the time the Axis realized that taking Malta would be a good idea, they had their hands full elsewhere. By the critical juncture when it seemed that Operation C3 would go ahead, Hitler nixed it as you know, instead preferring to give maximum support for Rommel's push to the Nile. Again, if Rommel had succeeded, Malta would have been relegated to very secondary status; it could simply have been starved out, as indeed almost happened.

[RichTO90]

Would have been a gift to the RN - the opportunity to engage the RM when the RM is pinned to supporting the Malta operation The RN tried all through the summer of 1940 and after to draw the RM into a major engagement...here you're gifting them with the opportunity of KNOWING where the Italians are going to be for some days at least...AND where they dare not leave They'd have piled down on them for a nice dusk or nighttime gun action - with the RA unable to support the Italian fleet

The RN could have effectively ended the North African campaign at one fell swoop before it even got off the ground by grabbing dominance of the Med in late June 1940!

Hi phylo,

Would that be the same RN that apparently was incapable of finding its ass with both hands in the Channel in the summer and fall of 1940? At least when it came to a Kriegsmarine "fleet" being "pinned to supporting" Sealion?



Cheers!

[phylo_roadking]

The point remains that whatever territorial gains Mussolini wanted - and I think Malta was rather far down that list - he wanted to get at the negotiation table.

That's true, but if you're building an empire, you'll have to start somewhere. When it was obvious that the Italians were getting their arses handed to them in Africa, Mussolini still didn't bother attacking Malta. Why? It would have removed serious interdiction abilities of the British right at Italy's doorstep and we don't have to use hindsight at that point any more.

As Jon has already said - arguably Italy HAD an African Empire....if rather overly-dispersed Taking Malta would have been seen rather as an essential to keeping it; further expansion by Italy would have HAD to have been by war or by diplomacy (well, duh!) What I mean is....there was nothing else loose to be scooped up, or likely to be simply handed over by LoN Mandate Taking Malta safeguards Libya and supply routes to Italy's "likely" war zone with one or other of the two imperial powers in North Africa who HAD territories she would have wanted.

Not teaching anyone to suck eggs - what I mean is...Malta facilities empire-building elsewhere, its not a true essential. After all,as noted elsewhere - they did try to take Egypt without it. But it was when trying to hold Italy's possessions it became "essential...

Right, but that falls somewhat outside the timeframe offered here In any case, by the time the Axis realized that taking Malta would be a good idea, they had their hands full elsewhere.

Remember how the BRITISH viewed Malta....as something that Mussolini would demand to facilitate talks with Hitler around the time of Dynamo, that earlier in the year its defences would need strengthening against an Italian attack...tc., etc. In other words - did the Allies and of course in particular the British REALLY see the value of Malta to an opponent in the Med before that opponent did? OR was it simply so axiomatic to an imperial power - on EITHER "side" - that a military outpost straddling your communications lines would have to be reduced....Jon, should this - "by the time the Axis realized that taking Malta would be a good idea"...therefore not read "by the time the Axis realized that taking Malta would be essential..." - as it was always "a good idea".

The RN did move its Mediterranean fleet from Malta to Alexandria when Italy entered the war, so to all intents and purposes the RN was out of the central Med as a permanent force for anyone contemplating a surprise assault on Malta. That changed later - after Taranto, which basically split the RM in two, and Operation Compass, which made it possible to reach Malta from Cyrenaica.

Jon, remember the two threads about Med convoys? Yes, the RN may have moved major surface units from Malta....but this did NOT keep them put of the Central Med OR stop them from operating against the Italians in Libya until "after Taranto"!

July 1940

9th, Action off Calabria or Battle of Punto Stila (see map above) - On the 7th, Adm Cunningham sailed from Alexandria with battleships Warspite, Malaya, Royal Sovereign, carrier Eagle, cruisers and destroyers to cover convoys from Malta to Alexandria and to challenge the Italians to action. Next day - the 8th - two Italian battleships, 14 cruisers and 32 destroyers were reported in the Ionian Sea covering a convoy of their own to Benghazi in Libya. Italian aircraft now started five days of accurate high-level bombing (also against Force H out of Gibraltar) and cruiser Gloucester was hit and damaged. Mediterranean Fleet headed for a position to cut off the Italians from their base at Taranto. On the 9th, Eagle's aircraft failed to find the Italians and first contact was made by a detached cruiser squadron which came under fire from the heavier Italian ships before it could return fire itself. "Warspite" came up and damaged "Giulio Cesare" with a 15in hit. As the Italian battleships turned away, the British cruisers and destroyers engaged, but with little effect. Mediterranean Fleet pursued to within 50 miles of the south west Italian coast off Calabria before withdrawing. As Adm Cunningham covered the by now delayed convoys to Alexandria, "Eagle's" Swordfish attacked Augusta harbour, Sicily on the 10th. Destroyer "Pancaldo" was torpedoed, but later re-floated and re-commissioned. 20th - Carrier "Eagle's" Swordfish continued their strikes against Italian targets around Tobruk. In the nearby Gulf of Bomba, 824 Squadron was responsible for sinking destroyers "NEMBO" and "OSTRO" and another freighter.

11th - Force H, which put to sea on receiving reports of the Italian fleet....

August 1940

Malta - The decision was taken to reinforce Malta and in Operation 'Hurry', carrier "Argus" flew off 12 Hurricanes from a position southwest of Sardinia. This was the first of many reinforcement and supply operations, often bitterly fought to keep Malta alive and in the fight against Axis supply routes to their armies in North Africa. Now, as in the future, cover from the west was provided by Force H. The opportunity was taken for Ark Royal's aircraft to hit Sardinian targets. In the middle of the month, MediterraneanFleet battleships Warspite, Malaya and Ramillies bombarded Italian positions around Bardia in Libya, just over the border from Egypt.

September 1940

17th - Units of the Mediterranean Fleet including battleship Valiant sailed with Illustrious for a raid on Benghazi. Swordfish biplanes torpedoed destroyer "BOREA" and mines laid by them off the port sank "AQUILONE".

October 1940

12th/14th, Attacks on Malta Convoy - From Alexandria a convoy safely reached Malta covered by the Mediterranean Fleet with four battleships and carriers Illustrious and Eagle. As the Fleet returned on the 12th, attacks were made by Italian light forces southeast of Sicily. Cruiser Ajax sank Italian torpedo boats "AIRONE" and "ARIEL" and badly damaged destroyer "ARTIGLIERE" which was finished off by heavy cruiser York. Later heading back east, the carriers launched air strikes against Leros island in the Dodecanese.

All from naval-history.net.

[Terry Duncan]

Would that be the same RN that apparently was incapable of finding its ass with both hands in the Channel in the summer and fall of 1940?

It found Dunkerque ok, and that was the one critical operation in this theatre for the time period.

Jon, should this - "by the time the Axis realized that taking Malta would be a good idea"...therefore not read "by the time the Axis realized that taking Malta would be essential..." - as it was always "a good idea".

To be perfectly honest, whilst taking Malta was always a good idea, can anyone see the Italian forces managing to achieve this without help? The RM was not too keen on fighting the RN to a conclusion in a surface action, and the attempts to bomb RN ships did not prove too effective either.

[JonS]

To be perfectly honest, whilst taking Malta was always a good idea, can anyone see the Italian forces managing to achieve this without help?

Well ... Dave certainly can

[Dave Bender]

can anyone see the Italian forces managing to achieve this without help?

If they can't then Italy has no business going to war with either France or Britain.