June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

[Terry Duncan]

Sure, but what do we actually know about them, other than their names?

Italy had no experience using them, and no specialized troops to do so either. It could be rather like Dieppe on a large scale at a guess. Italy didnt have the greatest war record for advanced planning or doing things on the spur of the moment - the invasion of Egypt being a good example.

[JonS]

Yeah. I'm not really convinced that they are actually APs, with all that term implies. It wouldn't surprise me much if they were APs in the same way that SS River Clyde was an "AP".

Edit: Incidentally, it might be worth bearing in mind that Gallipoli was nearer in time to them then than The Falklands is to us now.

[Baltasar]

Yep, just like Tarawa, Saipan, Peleliu, Iwo Jima...

Thankfully for the Italians, the British troops didn't follow the Bushido codex.

[Baltasar]

Baltasar - if you look at naval-history.net, you'll be suprised at the number of times from June 1940 onwards the RN escorted convoys to/from Malta or right through the Central Med accompanied by major surface units

Point being that they did not send in those when the Italians were attacking Malta... because the Italians didn't do it. Having a major operation going on there would be somewhat of a change of circumstances, wouldn't it. Afaik they also didn't concentrate the majority of their air assets in the area, which also should have an inpact on the outcome.

[RichTO90]

Yep, just like Tarawa, Saipan, Peleliu, Iwo Jima...

Thankfully for the Italians, the British troops didn't follow the Bushido codex.

That would be the Bushido codex that taught them to plot and clear interlocking fields of fire and to man their guns when attacked? I guess the poor Brits were more interested in football, beer, and teatime for the officers as their codex? :roll:

[Baltasar]

Rich, since you are apparently not interesting in exploring the scenario, I wonder why you're bothering posting here.

[cormallen]

Dave

"I assume these could be supplemented by converted merchant ships if necessary."

THAT is a list of passenger ships.... I want to know (though not as much as the poor italian assault troops!) if the Italians have actually GOT any amphibious assault equipment at all?? Your comment of 'if necessary' suggest that you don't have any idea yourself and are assuming they can just nip to 'landing craft 'R' us' and buy some in a couple of weeks?!

alan

[Baltasar]

During Crete, the Germans used basically everthing afloat for that, the Italians could do the same. How long would it take to weld something appropriate together for a first landing wave? It should be a matter of few weeks, something which could be done quite fast once it is apparent that the operation is likely to start soon-ish. Assuming the Italians had plans for Malta would imply a change in preparations as well and it's not like Malta is terribly far away from Sicily in any case.

[cormallen]

Hi Baltasar

The answer to the "does anyone know" bit would then be a 'no' then??
And your 'weld something together' does rather have us heading for 'sealion delusions' territory again?

Certainly possible to have the Italians build a force pre-war that would be happily capable of this sort of thing but this WI sort of suggests that it can be done very ad hoc with what they find in the back of the shed...

alan

[JonS]

During Crete, the Germans used basically everything afloat for that, ...

Mmm. Possibly not the best example you could have come up with

[Jon G.]

... Assuming the Italians had plans for Malta would imply a change in preparations as well and it's not like Malta is terribly far away from Sicily in any case.

That's a rather big assumption. The Italians hardly had any specific plans for the kind of war they ended up fighting. AFAIK, most Italian pre-war planning centered around conflict with France, Yugoslavia and/or Greece.

Regarding the use of paratroops, Malta was criss-crossed by low walls seperating farmers' fields, which would have made it difficult to use glider-borne troops* and quite possibly painful for paratroopers. Also, the island is so small that even the smallest of navigation errors might have your stick of paratroopers ending up in the sea, rather than atop important objectives.

All that aside, I am sure it could be done, or at least the Italians would have had a fair chance, but it would probably have to be some coup-de-main kind of thing, right on the heels of a DoW, and relying on British/Maltese unpreparedness for an immediate assault.

The question remains, would it have been worth the cost? The Italians thought that the fall of France would force the British to the negotiation table. Since it didn't, would the capture of Malta do? Like, 'look, we took Malta, now hand over your empire to us if you please'

*Some of the earliest German aid to the Italians was Ju-52 troop transports flying soldiers from Bari to Albania, so I think it would be reasonable to assume that the Italians would have been able to persuade the Germans to station some Ju-52s and gliders in Sicily. Which would open up another can of worms ('Parallel War' anyone?), not least wrt Mussolini's whole reasoning for entering the war in the first place.

[Tim Smith]

Dave

"I assume these could be supplemented by converted merchant ships if necessary."

THAT is a list of passenger ships.... I want to know (though not as much as the poor italian assault troops!) if the Italians have actually GOT any amphibious assault equipment at all?? Your comment of 'if necessary' suggest that you don't have any idea yourself and are assuming they can just nip to 'landing craft 'R' us' and buy some in a couple of weeks?!

alan

"Landing Craft 'R Us" also trading as: "Italian River Barge Co. Ltd" in co-operation with commercial partners "Fishing Boat Co. Ltd", "Small Pleasure Craft Co. Ltd", and "All-Purpose Rubber Dinghies Co. Ltd".

Basically, a hodge-podge of requisitioned civilian craft similiar to the German fleet for Operation Sealion. Formed up in 'Formation Pig-Pile' and heading for Malta at 3 knots. Italian troops issued with vomit-bags and lifebelts taken from laid-up ocean liners. Makeshift wooden rafts used to carry equipment to shore.

Organisationally, the invasion would be a complete cluster-f**k, but if the Italians have a 6-1 numerical advantage on the beaches, they could pull it off through sheer weight of numbers and the determination of their junior officers and NCO's.

[Tim Smith]

Regarding the use of paratroops, Malta was criss-crossed by low walls seperating farmers' fields, which would have made it difficult to use glider-borne troops* and quite possibly painful for paratroopers. Also, the island is so small that even the smallest of navigation errors might have your stick of paratroopers ending up in the sea, rather than atop important objectives.

All that aside, I am sure it could be done, or at least the Italians would have had a fair chance, but it would probably have to be some coup-de-main kind of thing, right on the heels of a DoW, and relying on British/Maltese unpreparedness for an immediate assault.

The question remains, would it have been worth the cost? The Italians thought that the fall of France would force the British to the negotiation table. Since it didn't, would the capture of Malta do? Like, 'look, we took Malta, now hand over your empire to us if you please'

*Some of the earliest German aid to the Italians was Ju-52 troop transports flying soldiers from Bari to Albania, so I think it would be reasonable to assume that the Italians would have been able to persuade the Germans to station some Ju-52s and gliders in Sicily. Which would open up another can of worms ('Parallel War' anyone?), not least wrt Mussolini's whole reasoning for entering the war in the first place.

1. Paratroops - not critical to the success of the operation. The Italians only have one combat-ready battalion of them, not even enough to secure one major airfield. They are more of a diversionary force than anything else, to create confusion in the British rear areas.

2. Transport planes - the Italians don't need German Ju-52's, they have their own transport plane. The Savoia-Marchetti SM.81. From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoia-Mar ... al_history : "In Libya, in 1938, a whole parachutist battalion was launched when the King went on an official visit to Italo Balbo's colony." So the SM.81 had been used before as a paratroop transport. And they only need to transport one battalion of them, so they'll have enough planes.

3. Coup-de-main: Agreed, a surprise attack on 10 June 1940 would offer the best chance of success. But for that Mussolini has to give the go-ahead to prepare for the operation on 10 May 1940, at the latest, meaning it has to have been planned even before that.

4. Would it be worth the cost? In propaganda terms, yes, IF it succeeds - it's an operation as daring and bold as the German invasion of Norway. And Mussolini was very hungry for propaganda victories. Strategically, it's definitely worth it, denying Britain a very valuable sub and air base. If it's a failure, though.....not good for Mussolini's blood pressure!

[cormallen]

Original post states :
"Italian parachute regiment.
Italy had 3 parachute battalions in 1940. They would be used to neutralize Malta coast defenses before the assault transports arrive."

I know he is wrong about numbers (etc) but they do seem to have a fairly usefull role in this plan...

Dunno what suitable beaches Malta has for a large scale landing? It is mostly rocks and cliffs with several small-ish bays IIRC? The defenders are not likely to be able to guard the coast very widely with their force levels so 'crushing them on the beaches' prob not a realistic option?

The italians in-ability (LCT 'R' US ?) to land anything heavy over beaches will be a problem for them however.

alan

[RichTO90]

Rich, since you are apparently not interesting in exploring the scenario, I wonder why you're bothering posting here.

Who sez I'm not interested? I find these exercises endlessly fascinating, just like a train wreck, and especially when events and capabilities are twisted to fit as required. You've made two rather boneheaded pseudo-comparisons typical of the thinking that goes into this genre and I commented on them. Live with it.

You might want to rethink the premise that amphibious operations against small fortified islands was "easy" if you have some "bombardment support" ships along. You might also wonder about the "Bushido codex" required of the assaulting troops in such a situation; the codex that was rewuired of the 1st and 29th US Division on OMAHA, the 4th US Division on UTAH, the 50th Division on Gold, the 3rd Canadian Division on JUNO, the 3rd British Division on SWORD, innumerable USMC divisions in the Pacific, and so on. Nor did such an operation that was successful normally get slapped together in an ad hoc fashion at the last moment.

Cheers!