June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

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Terry Duncan
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Re: June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

#31

Post by Terry Duncan » 10 Aug 2010, 02:50

If they can't then Italy has no business going to war with either France or Britain.


That would have been the sensible option in my opinion, as Italy had a lot to lose and little to gain. She would only ever be given things Germany did not want and find her military drawn into wars they certainly didnt want.

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That would have been the sensible

#32

Post by Dave Bender » 10 Aug 2010, 03:37

Yup. But I don't see much that makes sense in Italian foreign policy during the 1930s and early 1940s. They will go to war as soon as they think France has been defeated.


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Re: June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

#33

Post by RichTO90 » 10 Aug 2010, 04:47

Terry Duncan wrote:
Would that be the same RN that apparently was incapable of finding its ass with both hands in the Channel in the summer and fall of 1940?
It found Dunkerque ok, and that was the one critical operation in this theatre for the time period.
Sorry for the confusion Terry, but that was a jape aimed at Phylo re the Sealion thread and not my opinion...

Sheesh, I really wish there was a [sarcasm][/sarcasm] button... :lol:
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Tim Smith
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Re: June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

#34

Post by Tim Smith » 10 Aug 2010, 18:46

Dave Bender wrote:
can anyone see the Italian forces managing to achieve this without help?
If they can't then Italy has no business going to war with either France or Britain.
IMO, Italy could have taken Malta alone in June 1940, but it would take Italy being prepared to suffer very heavy losses in the process. Which historically Italy was not keen to do. Not because the troops lacked courage - Italian soldiers showed great courage in the Battles of the Isonzo in WW1) but because their senior generals and Mussolini showed incompetence and lack of resolve, which demoralised their troops.

Throwing Italian infantry divisions in a very hasty amphibious assault against British defences can work, if the Italians can mass an absolutely overwhelming numerical advantage at the point of contact (at least 3 to 1, preferably 6 to 1.) So at best in a Malta amphibious landing, it would take an Italian infantry regiment of three battalions to overwhelm a single defending British battalion. Worst case (very strong terrain advantage for the British plus very considerable confusion and disruption on the Italian side) it could take twice that. A whole Italian division to overwhelm one British battalion!

The British had five infantry battalions on Malta in June 1940, so it would take at least 2 entire Italian divisions to take the island (3 would be better) plus a battalion of paratroops (Italy only had 1 battalion trained up at that time.) And the landing would still be very costly, like Crete for the paratroops and like Omaha Beach for the amphibiously-landed infantry. Taking into consideration the complete Italian inexperience at opposed parachute operations and opposed amphibious landings.

This is not much fun for the Italians, even if they win. And that's assuming their invasion force doesn't get blown out of the water by the Royal Navy, as per Crete 1941.

Doable, but very costly and very risky, is my verdict.

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Re: June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

#35

Post by Baltasar » 10 Aug 2010, 19:28

Crete is a lot further away than Malta for the Italians. Whatever the RN is up to will most likely be known to the Italians before something goes wrong on the water.

Malta is also a rather small island which can easily be shelled by the Italians. If they prepare their invasion with ship artillery and supression missions, the landings themselves should be doable with much reduced risk.

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Re: June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

#36

Post by Dave Bender » 10 Aug 2010, 19:40

at least 2 entire Italian divisions to take the island (3 would be better) plus a battalion of paratroops
That's a cheap price to pay for gaining control of the central mediterranean. During the 1930s Italy paid a lot more to conquer Ethiopia, a land of little economic or strategic value.

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Re: June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

#37

Post by Gooner1 » 10 Aug 2010, 20:58

Baltasar wrote:Whatever the RN is up to will most likely be known to the Italians before something goes wrong on the water.
And if what is known to them is four great RN battlewagons making full steam towards Malta what do they do then?
Malta is also a rather small island which can easily be shelled by the Italians. If they prepare their invasion with ship artillery and supression missions, the landings themselves should be doable with much reduced risk.

Yes, a small island which historically had tens of thousands of tons of bombs dropped on them without suppressing the defences. What makes you think an afternoons bombing and shelling would achieve something different?

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Re: June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

#38

Post by Dave Bender » 10 Aug 2010, 21:07

What makes you think an afternoons bombing and shelling would achieve something different?
It won't. However sending Italian infantry ashore completely changes the equation.

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Re: June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

#39

Post by Baltasar » 10 Aug 2010, 21:14

Gooner1 wrote:
Baltasar wrote:Whatever the RN is up to will most likely be known to the Italians before something goes wrong on the water.
And if what is known to them is four great RN battlewagons making full steam towards Malta what do they do then?

Strangely enough, the British never tried that stunt. You may ask them why yourself.

Malta is also a rather small island which can easily be shelled by the Italians. If they prepare their invasion with ship artillery and supression missions, the landings themselves should be doable with much reduced risk.
Yes, a small island which historically had tens of thousands of tons of bombs dropped on them without suppressing the defences. What makes you think an afternoons bombing and shelling would achieve something different?
The difference would be the riot commonly known as amphibious invasion which would follow the bombardment, which would in total be considerably more effective than just dropping ordanance.

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Re: June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

#40

Post by Terry Duncan » 10 Aug 2010, 22:29

The problem for invading Malta would be the need to get the troops there and cover the landings, the Italians would run the risk of not only a surface encounter but also one with subs, and an operation that resulted in the loss of a large portion of Italy's navy would leave them fairly crippled in the Med anyhow. Possibly a mirror of the Norway campaign but without the industrial material bonuses.

The Italian army could fight, and did so on a few occaisions, but the war was not exactly the most popular one with the Italian people and armies do fight best when they have a popular cause.

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Re: June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

#41

Post by RichTO90 » 10 Aug 2010, 22:49

Baltasar wrote:Malta is also a rather small island which can easily be shelled by the Italians. If they prepare their invasion with ship artillery and supression missions, the landings themselves should be doable with much reduced risk.
Yep, just like Tarawa, Saipan, Peleliu, Iwo Jima... 8O

Course for three of those the Americans had uncontested naval and air supremacy and naval and air superiority for the fourth...oh, wait, the Italians didn't have that either... :lol:

Why no risk at all! 8-)
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Re: June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

#42

Post by phylo_roadking » 10 Aug 2010, 22:56

And if what is known to them is four great RN battlewagons making full steam towards Malta what do they do then?
Strangely enough, the British never tried that stunt. You may ask them why yourself.
Baltasar - if you look at naval-history.net, you'll be suprised at the number of times from June 1940 onwards the RN escorted convoys to/from Malta or right through the Central Med accompanied by major surface units :wink: I've already posted up a couple -
12th/14th, Attacks on Malta Convoy - From Alexandria a convoy safely reached Malta covered by the Mediterranean Fleet with four battleships and carriers Illustrious and Eagle.
9th, Action off Calabria or Battle of Punto Stila (see map above) - On the 7th, Adm Cunningham sailed from Alexandria with battleships Warspite, Malaya, Royal Sovereign, carrier Eagle, cruisers and destroyers to cover convoys from Malta to Alexandria and to challenge the Italians to action.
...and many more. What they didn't do is let them get them bottled up in Malta anchorages.
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Re: June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

#43

Post by cormallen » 10 Aug 2010, 23:29

Just a thought... does anyone know what sort of amphibious assault shipping the italians have at this point? I do hope this isn't another one of these "they will use towed barges" jobs like the assorted delusional sealion redux ideas??

Perhaps they can use that big Roman barge from the museum before it got burnt...

alan

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Re: June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

#44

Post by Dave Bender » 11 Aug 2010, 00:14

does anyone know what sort of amphibious assault shipping the italians have at this point?
Apparently you did not read the first post. I listed all the Italian assault transports (APs) by name.

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Re: June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

#45

Post by JonS » 11 Aug 2010, 00:47

Dave Bender wrote:
does anyone know what sort of amphibious assault shipping the italians have at this point?
Apparently you did not read the first post. I listed all the Italian assault transports (APs) by name.
Sure, but what do we actually know about them, other than their names?

This seems to indicate that calling them all APs might be a little ... optimistic.
Last edited by JonS on 11 Aug 2010, 10:10, edited 2 times in total.

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