June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

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Re: June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

#541

Post by Terry Duncan » 08 Oct 2010, 03:09

Commonwealth troops did counter attack but when they felt that they could not crush the bridgehead they did what British ground forced did at that time, like in Namsos, Åldalsnes, Dunkirk, Tessaloniki ...
All somewhat not British possesions, all rather improvised and not set defences, and all with troops far from fully familiar with the areas involved unlike at Malta.

The idea of crushing a bridgehead only becomes a problem once one is established, and Italy has pretty much zero experience here, no actual specialist equipment or trained troops, an ill prepared army, an inadequate navy and an airforce that achived little bombing Malta for three years. Malta is not a nice soft little target, it is a rocky little lump covered in forts and guns, nor does it offer any decent areas to form a bridgehead with ease.

Apparently throwing Alpine troops and ancient artillery pieces at it will make all the difference somehow?

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Re: June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

#542

Post by RichTO90 » 08 Oct 2010, 04:14

BDV wrote:After Overlord AnAm forces simply bypassed a bunch of Nazi-occupied fortified ports. But, unlike Italians, they had planned for it and could afford to do it. And Yanks did pay the price to take what they absolutely had to have - Cherbourg.
AnAm? Bypassed "Nazi-occupied fortified ports? Dear Lord, but could you possibly be any more of a poseur?
So if that's a price to pay, shouldn't it be payed early, while it's still (maybe!) manageable?
Um, no, it doesn't work that way...governments and militaries rarely measure the cost differential that way...and in any case, they never have the slightest clue really as to what might be paid... :roll: :lol:
And on Fascisti not comprehending the real value of Malta, the premise of this WHIF is that they do, don't you think?
Sure, but of they were that prescient then they would more likely twig to the idea that their notion of a new Roman Empire was ludicrous...dear me, how that notion seems so fitting...idiocy is obvioulsy not restricted either to the Italian High Command in World War II...or AHF in the 21st Century... :roll:
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Re: June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

#543

Post by RichTO90 » 08 Oct 2010, 04:19

BDV wrote:Rich,

You might be right. I was thinking Italians would need some long range artillery help, but troops on Gozo might have their hands full trying to set up the Obices (as Fort Campbell has to be destroyed).

They might have to rely on support from 105s and/or 75/18s from Comino and whatever they can drag on the beach - which may limit them to either 75/18s broken into pieces (and joy of joys! assembled under british fire) or the 65/17.
Dear Lord, I see it, you've now realized that the weapons you've advocated either aren't available or aren't capable enough...so you chose to ignore that and go with weapons that are available, but that are completely incapable...

This clownishness has gone beyond trolling... :roll:
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Re: June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

#544

Post by cormallen » 08 Oct 2010, 08:15

Hi Phylo,

"the best chance for sinking Italian ships""

I agree completely, just wanted to be as even handed as possible to what is a properly daft idea...

alan

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Re: June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

#545

Post by JonS » 08 Oct 2010, 09:19

John T wrote:IF only attack Gozo, it would been as a bait to kill RN with subs and Air
lol - with the Italian airforce and navy? I think not. More likely an own goal which guarantees the loss of any forces landed on Gozo, and any ships sent to their aid.
I Would go for a direct attack on the NW tip of Malta, and at the same time land forces at Gozo as a transit point.
If the first wave with Marines and Paras (4 Bns in total) manage to clear the NW tip of Malta, Ramla bay and Cirkewwa by marines and the Paras cut of reinforcements westwards SE of Saint Pauls bay.
How exciting for you. Unfortunately - as has been explained ad nauseum - there are NOT four bns of marines and paras. There is maybe one, barely trained, of the latter (with insufficient airlift, BTW), and a single tiny Marine 'bn' with utterly inadequate sealift.
the 6" at fort cambell where in open gun pits and I suppose you could at least supress them with an attack sqn.
Maybe. If the Italians had one of those.
Then when RN shows up the Italians moves away most surface ships from the direct vicinity and let a sigificant group of the ~100 subs and ~60 MBT's available to take their toll of Royal Navy
lol - I see the British have once again turned into the typical AHF inert-punching-bag enemy force. That really should be patented.
RN have to move and stay in a small zone for shore bombardment.
Ok, I was prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt but unfortunately it seems that you, too, are a clueless twonk. The primary target for the RN is the RM. The British ground forces on Malta - under even the most dire of assumptions - will be able to hold their own for a while. On the other hand, once one side has naval supremacy in the central Med, then it's all over for the other sides forces still on Malta. And, as a hint, it won't be the RM gaining naval supremacy.
I think If Italians get a foothold there is little chance to get them out of it
How the hell do you think they're going to be able to keep it?!

Actually, more to the point, the British wouldn't even need to evict them. Just string up a couple of strands of barbed wire, and start referring to the 'foothold' as POW Camp No.01.

Wait ... where have I heard that before? Oh that's right - it was me. On page 11 of this thread. Yep, we really are going in circles on this one now.

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Re: June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

#546

Post by RichTO90 » 08 Oct 2010, 14:20

JonS wrote:How exciting for you. Unfortunately - as has been explained ad nauseum - there are NOT four bns of marines and paras. There is maybe one, barely trained, of the latter (with insufficient airlift, BTW), and a single tiny Marine 'bn' with utterly inadequate sealift...
:roll: :lol:
lol - I see the British have once again turned into the typical AHF inert-punching-bag enemy force. That really should be patented...
:roll: :lol:
Wait ... where have I heard that before? Oh that's right - it was me. On page 11 of this thread. Yep, we really are going in circles on this one now.
:roll: :lol:

Thanks Jon for saving me pointing out the bleeding obvious to these wankers. You've pinpointed the patented methodology of the typical What If Wanker...stretch the thread out a bit more and then repeat a bit of nonsense, a half-truth, or an outright lie (it seems the only lesson of history they have a clue of is Goebbels "Big Lie"), assume that one side is all-knowingly brilliant wwhile the other are all dullards of the worst sort, rinse and repeat.

At this point I'm afraid I feel absolutely no compunction against calling a fucktard a fucktard, despite the forum rules, so I.m giving fair warning to the moderators following this thread...you're probably gonna be deleting all or parts of my future postings since that's all I feel inclined to add at this point - IT'S ALL BEEN SAID OTHERWISE! :lol:
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Re: June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

#547

Post by LWD » 08 Oct 2010, 15:20

BDV wrote:... It would be extremely interesting if he'd give a rebuttal, however curt, to the Gozo Option. So far, the only argument is that 3,000 royal ubermen on Malta would dispatch any number of italian untermen. Like you know, they so famously did at Crete and Singapore.
Your characterization of the arguments is precisely wrong. In the response above you are applying or at least attempting to apply the logical fallacy of "appeal to emotion" specifically in the use of German. The rebuttal points out the extreme difficulties the Italians would face and the strong points of the British position. You have failed to rebut any of them.
Naval guns and coastal guns are more of a direct fire asset, so if the Alpini get to the shore, their effectiveness decreases greatly.
Not while the Italian supplies and indeed a significant part of the force is still in ships off shore.
... They should be only able to get 105 mm guns on Comino, which would be OK against defending infantry in range, but I don't think would be enough against Fort Campbell.
Why would they be defending vs infantry? The British have no need of invading these islands. If their defence succeed the Italians will be forced to surrender or retreat from them (taking losses in the process) if by a series of repeated miracles the Italians succeed vs Malta it won't matter.
The motley Italian landing flotilla could assemble and hide behind the northwest ridge of Gozo until the day of attack (probably the 3rd day of the attack).
This seems a bit dangerous as the RN is likely to show up no more than 2 days after the attack begins.
... I still doubt that the Med Fleet would be jeopardized just to defend Malta, although they could venture in close, and shell the landing party in an attempt to draw RM out to battle (I think crippling RM was the major operational objective of the Med Fleet), and give cover to the evacuation.
If the RN shows up in force anywhere near the island the RM must face it or abandon the invasion.
BDV wrote:
phylo_roadking wrote:... - Are you aware of ANY quays on Gozo or Comino that could then handle freighters? :wink:
If they could could they also support the weight of the artillery?
Seriously, does it really escape you that Cunningham would LEAP at the chance to engage the RM? As he historically was champing at the bit in 1940? It's got nothing to do with "luring out" the RM - the RM is already going to be there, supporting the landings! The RM can fight....or run - but the thing is they're there, sitting off Malta already IN the Central Med.
Given the Italians' air assets, RM would be in good position to do a bit of cat-and-mouse with with Med Fleet. RM should avoid the MedFleet like the plague, delusions of some at Regia Marina of parity with the MedFleet notwithstanding.
How do they avoid the RN and still protect the invasion convoy?
John T wrote:
JonS wrote: ..
IF only attack Gozo, it would been as a bait to kill RN with subs and Air - out of scope in this thread.
And there's the point of what Italian "Air".
Then when RN shows up the Italians moves away most surface ships from the direct vicinity and let a sigificant group of the ~100 subs and ~60 MBT's available to take their toll of Royal Navy as RN have to move and stay in a small zone for shore bombardment.
How much warning do you think they will get? Especially if the RN comes in at night? Enough for the transports to escape? I doubt it. Then there's the 100 Italian subs. I'd like to see some documentation on that but even without it looking at: http://silentseawolvesmsw.devhub.com/bl ... ld-war-ii/
We see the following:
In the Mediterranean, however, their successes were few and their losses high: they sank about 200,000 tons of shipping during the course of more than 1,500 wartime patrols
In general subs were much less effective vs warships especially those alert and operating at speed. Then of course we haven't mentioned the RN subs and what they are doing to the invasion convoy.

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Re: June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

#548

Post by Terry Duncan » 08 Oct 2010, 16:41

Ok, I was prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt but unfortunately it seems that you, too, are a clueless twonk.
This is far more possible that landing on Malta, Conmino, or Gozo, and possibly is a far more long lasting venture.

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Re: June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

#549

Post by phylo_roadking » 08 Oct 2010, 17:41

... - Are you aware of ANY quays on Gozo or Comino that could then handle freighters?
If they could could they also support the weight of the artillery?
I can't help thinking of the parable of the quay at Suda Bay on Crete - that WAS large enough to handle freighters, and the quay was wide enough and sturdy enough to handle vehicles and artillery disembarked by a freighter's own steam winches....

Unfortunately, some inconsiderate local in the interwar years had built a gurt big warehouse right in the middle of the quay, so the quay itself could only pass a couple of files of infantry along its length! :lol: :lol: :lol: Which is the reason why the British had to land larger vehicles, artillery, heavy stores, tanks etc. on Crete by "lighter", and spend time inconveniently unloading by said winches onto the lighters in the middle of the Bay and then chugging them to the nearest sloping/shelving beach! 8O
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Re: June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

#550

Post by David Thompson » 08 Oct 2010, 21:57

Drop the personal remarks, gentlemen.

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Re: June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

#551

Post by John T » 08 Oct 2010, 22:26

Gooner1 wrote:
John T wrote: I had missed that Stuart, Vampire Vendetta ( WW1 destroyers) and HMS Diamond still operated from Malta.
Vendetta where in dock but the other three where operational.
And all left Malta a month later, the 9:th July.

Cheers
/John
Unless I have missed something none of those destroyers were based in Malta but were part of the Mediterranean Fleet at Alexandria.

'On 20 May, French battleships BRETAGNE and PROVENCE departed Alexandria to sweep towards Cape Bon. They were escorted by French large destroyers LYNX and TIGRE and Australian destroyers STUART, VAMPIRE, VOYAGER, WATERHEN.'
'23rd May Battleship ROYAL SOVEREIGN, light cruiser CALEDON, destroyers DIAMOND and VENDETTA departed Alexandria for Malta. These ships were joined on the 24th by British steamer NEVASA (9213grt). On the 25th, light cruiser CALYPSO joined. http://www.naval-history.net/xDKWW2-4005-14MAY04.htm
You are right from an organisational perspective but from a tactical perspective these destroyers where in Valetta harbour.

And I liked to make a point of "to learn you have to accept when you err"

cheers
/John

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Re: June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

#552

Post by John T » 08 Oct 2010, 22:51

RichTO90 wrote:
phylo_roadking wrote:Apart from anything else - there is absolutely no way that the Italians could foresee that historical events would totally remove the French Mediterranean Fleet from the gaming board
Bingo! Among other things they couldn't foresee...while they could easily foresee that their East African possesions were vulnerable and that the best way to deal with that was to unleash Tenth Army on Egypt...especially since that is where they had a decisive advantage. :roll: I mean for Christ's sake fantasy about Malta is the worst of hindsight. Just when exactly did HERAKLES planning start? Hmmm? :roll: They could also easily foresee that the potential continental threat...and goodies to be plucked...were in FRANCE where the majority of the modern Italian forces were deployed. While the other potential threat was Yugoslavia and Greece.

This has descended in the worst sort of retarded repetition of masturbatory what-if fantasy... :roll:

Let me quote Bragiano, "The Italian Navy in World War II" USNI 1957, Page 19ff:
As for Malta, its ports and airfields where practically in the very heart of Italy's most strategic area.
Sound strategy demanded that an attempt to occupy it be made immediately.in fact, since 1938 the Navy had maintained that the occupation of the island was a primary and indispensable condition for for conducting any such war as the present one against Great Britain. When it first appeared possible that Italy would take part in the war,the Navy had presented a plan for the conquest of Malta to the supreme Command. But the Supreme Command gave up this idea because of the presupposition that the war would be a very short one, and also because it was believed that the Italian Air Force would be able to neutralize the island's military usefullness
(italics in original print)


Cheers
/John

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Re: June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

#553

Post by phylo_roadking » 08 Oct 2010, 23:12

John, there's nothing to disagree with in ther - sound strategy DID demand it....but the sound fact was that when Italy declared war the RM was totally outnumbered and outclassed by BOTH the Royal Navy and the French Navy together.

Interestingly - look at THIS...
When it first appeared possible that Italy would take part in the war,the Navy had presented a plan for the conquest of Malta to the supreme Command. But the Supreme Command gave up this idea because of the presupposition that the war would be a very short one
THAT would indicate to me that whatever else was in the RM's plan for taking Malta early....it was going to take longer than Italy expected their whole war to last :wink:

I.E. certainly longer than the necessary 36-48 hours to completion! :D

And finally....
in fact, since 1938 the Navy had maintained that the occupation of the island was a primary and indispensable condition for for conducting any such war as the present one against Great Britain. When it first appeared possible that Italy would take part in the war,the Navy had presented a plan for the conquest of Malta to the supreme Command. But the Supreme Command gave up this idea
From THAT we can see that the "Supreme Command's" priorities and concerns were different from the RM's :wink: And so Rich's point...
Among other things they couldn't foresee...while they could easily foresee that their East African possesions were vulnerable and that the best way to deal with that was to unleash Tenth Army on Egypt...especially since that is where they had a decisive advantage. I mean for Christ's sake fantasy about Malta is the worst of hindsight. Just when exactly did HERAKLES planning start? Hmmm? They could also easily foresee that the potential continental threat...and goodies to be plucked...were in FRANCE where the majority of the modern Italian forces were deployed. While the other potential threat was Yugoslavia and Greece.
....still stands - for he's talking about the Supreme Command I.E. the decisionmakers, the shot-callers. Not the RM, that was only one branch of the Italian armed forces.
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Re: June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

#554

Post by John T » 08 Oct 2010, 23:40

phylo_roadking wrote:John, there's nothing to disagree with in ther
....
....still stands - for he's talking about the Supreme Command I.E. the decisionmakers, the shot-callers. Not the RM, that was only one branch of the Italian armed forces.
Yes, and do we have to disagree?

I added that Italian Navy had prepared plans of an invasion of Malta since 1938.
And provided the source too.


What about learn from each other?
/John

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Re: June 1940. Italy invades Malta.

#555

Post by phylo_roadking » 09 Oct 2010, 00:00

I added that Italian Navy had prepared plans of an invasion of Malta since 1938.
And provided the source too.

What about learn from each other?
John, I would have fully expected the Italians...SOME branch or other....to have forumlated such a plan - it's what planning staffs are for, after all - and particularly in peacetime! :lol: To generate plans, and fill shelves with dusty reams of paperwork that sometimes get updated...

It would be interesting to know more of the specifics - to see why the "Supreme Command" though it innappropriate for a "very short" war :wink:

HOWEVER - the flipside of these are often that when formulated they require inter-service liaison and cooperation that didn't (yet) exist, or require the capabilities of another service arm that were firmly directed elsewhere :wink:

Does anyone know on what date in 1940 the CAI and an Italian contribution to the reduction of Great Britain was first suggested? The Corpo Aero Italiano was formally constituted on the 10th of September 1940...but -
Generale sa (Air Marshal) Rino Corso-Fougier was made Air Officer Commanding. He was reputed to be a brilliant officer and pilot, but his only recent war experience was the short lived campaign when Italy invaded the south of France.
There where three Stormi (roughly a RAF Wing). Two of these were bombers and were the striking force, self-protection being provided by the fighter Stormo. With the transport element (twelve Caproni 133Ts, one Savoia-Marchetti S.75, with nine Ca164s for communications) a force of some two hundred aircraft.
18o Gruppo CT was re-assigned from 3o Stormo after having taken part in the attack on southern France and equipped with new aircraft. 20o Gruppo CT was re-assigned from 51o Stormo and was initially equipped with 45 Fiat G.50bis.
During the preparation stage, details were particularly taken care of in order to make a good impression on the German ally. A number of modifications were made to the equipment and a special grey-blue uniform was created for the troop, eliminating knickerbockers and puttees of World War 1 vintage.
....it looks as if preparations were in hand a long time before that! :wink:
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