1941: What if Germany refuses troops for North Africa

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stg 44
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Re: 1941: What if Germany refuses troops for North Africa

Post by stg 44 » 03 Jan 2017 13:18

Gooner1 wrote:
stg 44 wrote: I don't think it was inevitable. The Mediterranean Front was winnable with a different strategy than IOTL. A critical mistake was not starving Malta into submission before shifting X. Fliegerkorps to Greece in May-June. They let up just at the moment the Brits had given up on it, but hadn't decided to surrender yet, which let them recover and turn it into the major output in the Mediterranean. Had they kept up Luftwaffe efforts through June it would have surrendered in June or July
Your evidence for this is? This strikes me as wishful thinking especially since convoys and naval ships did make successful supply runs to Malta February-May '41.

http://www.naval-history.net/xAH-MaltaSupply03.htm
Despite making successful runs by April, when Luftwaffe operations were winding down and attention shifting to other sectors, Malta was under strict rationing and food was becoming scarce. Just as aerial operations were biting hard and air control by the Axis over the island was at it's peak for the year, the Luftwaffe let up and after the process started the April convoy arrived. Looking back at my sources it was overboard to say the British were ready to abandon Malta by May 1941, as they were reviving then and the reason offensive shipping left Malta was the Crete campaign, not bombing (the Brits were willing to risk the naval strike force that conducted the Triago attack in mid-April by stationing it in Malta). The May reinforcements of Malta though came after the Luftwaffe effectively stopped attacking the island.

That said I am convinced had the Luftwaffe not prematurely abandoned their focus on Malta starting in April (they started sending some of the interdiction forces to support Rommel in March, but that was unavoidable) they could have gotten the island to surrender by putting in the requisite efforts to limit supplies to the island to the point it could not continue to resist. By April rationing was hitting hard and it wasn't until the Luftwaffe shifted attention that enough supplies were reliably getting through to ease up the majority of supply hardship.
Urmel wrote: I provided data and verifiable information. You ignore it in order to claim things that are verifiably untrue in pursuit if an argument that makes no sense and flies in the face of reality. When you engage with the data and bring anything worth that description of your own, rather than making up things, you'll get a reasoned response. At present the above is all your post deserves.
The only numbers you provided are when AFV shipments were received, which doesn't tell us how many were operational or even deployed to the front. In 1942 hundreds of British Cruiser tanks were immobilized with mechanical issues and were not even desert-ized so required major work to get running for use in Egypt/Libya, a similar situation I'm sure existed in 1941.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusader_tank#Performance
Initial performance of the Crusader was found to be better than the comparable Stuart light tanks.[5] Despite reliability problems, the tanks formed the primary unit for British cruiser tank armoured regiments, while the Stuart was used for recconnaisance.

The Crusader suffered from chronic reliability problems in desert use as a result of several factors. Tanks arriving in North Africa were missing many of the essential tools and servicing manuals needed to maintain operation - stolen or lost in transit. As tanks broke down, a lack of spare parts meant that many components were replaced with worn parts recovered from other tanks. When the tanks were returned to the base workshops upon reaching service intervals, many were serviced with components that had already achieved their design lifespan.

A rapid ramp-up in manufacturing within the UK caused quality issues as inexperienced workers began assembling tanks. This placed further pressure on the receiving base workshops who had to carry out the necessary re-work.

The new tanks also had a number of design flaws which needed to be worked out. The reconfiguration of the Mk. III Liberty engine into a flatter format to fit into the Crusader engine compartment had badly affected the tank's water pumps and cooling fan arrangements, both of which were critical in the hot desert temperatures. Several official and unofficial in-theatre modifications were applied in attempts to improve reliability and conserve water, which otherwise had to be prioritised on keeping the vehicles running. Rectification of these issues took a very long time, by which time confidence in the Crusader had been lost. Calls were made at various points for the vehicles to be replaced with the Valentine infantry tank or US-made M3 Grant tank.

As time moved on, more and more were being returned to base workshops leading to a shortage of battle-ready tanks, and a massive backlog of repair works to be completed. The number of vehicles available on the frontline dwindled, and US made replacements were brought-in.

The Crusader proved unreliable in the desert. This started with their transport from the UK to North Africa. Poor preparation and handling caused problems that had to be rectified before they could be passed to the regiments, and ate into the supply of spare parts. Once in use, the sand caused erosion in the cooling system[8] and the stresses of hard cross-country travel caused oil leaks in the engine blocks. Since there were few tank transporters or railways in the desert, the tanks had to travel long distances on their tracks, causing further wear.
For all the problems of the Crusader tank, the Stuart apparently was even less useful.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M3_Stuart ... and_Europe
From mid-November 1941 to the end of the year, about 170 Stuarts (in a total force of over 700 tanks) took part in Operation Crusader during the North Africa Campaign, with poor results. Although the high losses suffered by Stuart-equipped units during the operation had more to do with the better tactics and training of the Afrika Korps than the apparent superiority of German armored fighting vehicles used in the North African campaign,[10] the operation revealed that the M3 had several technical faults. Mentioned in the British complaints were the 37 mm M5 gun and poor internal layout. The two-man turret crew was a significant weakness, and some British units tried to fight with three-man turret crews. The Stuart also had a limited range, which was a severe problem in the highly mobile desert warfare as units often outpaced their supplies and were stranded when they ran out of fuel. On the positive side, crews liked its relatively high speed and mechanical reliability, especially compared to the Crusader tank,[11][12] which comprised a large portion of the British tank force in Africa up until 1942. The Crusader had similar armament and armor to the Stuart while being slower, less reliable, and several tons heavier. The main drawback of the Stuart was its low fuel capacity and range; its operational range was only 75 miles (cross country),[14] roughly half that of the Crusader.


So we have no idea of the actual combat strength of armor deployed by September, as there were major issues with 2/3rds of British AFV types.
Of course even the Matilda II's were not that useful except on the attack when they could be deployed as a breakthrough tank:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matilda_I ... 40_to_1942
Ultimately, in the rapid manoeuvre warfare often practised in the open desert of North Africa, the Matilda's low speed and unreliable steering mechanism became major problems. Another snag was the lack of a high-explosive shell (the appropriate shell existed but was not issued).When the German Afrika Korps arrived in North Africa, the 88 mm anti-aircraft gun was again pressed into service against the Matilda, causing heavy losses during Operation Battleaxe, when sixty-four Matildas were lost. The arrival of the more powerful 50mm Pak 38 anti-tank gun and 75mm Pak 40 anti-tank gun also provided a means for the German infantry to engage Matilda tanks at combat ranges. Nevertheless, during Operation Crusader Matilda tanks of 1st and 32nd Army Tank Brigades were instrumental in the breakout from Tobruk and the capture of the Axis fortress of Bardia.[27] The operation was decided by the infantry tanks, after the failure of the cruiser tank equipped 7th Armoured Division to overcome the Axis tank forces in the open desert.[28]
Of course given the historical record the Matilda was probably the least bad British tank of 1941, as the slow, clumsy Infantry Tanks were more reliable than the Cruisers.

The other numbers you provided were of the number and name of British divisions, as I pointed out the Aussies were pretty worn down by August anyway and were due to the replaced and would have been eliminated from the British OOB by the storming of Tobruk along with whatever sundry units were there. The Aussie 6th Division would have to be replaced by another division to leave Palestine, as they were the garrison/occupation division to ensure the Arabs didn't revolt again, so they can't be used without replacement. That is two divisions you listed that wouldn't be available by September. Plus then you didn't actually provide numbers about how many troops were in British units and how up to strength they actually were. With Rommel storming Tobruk, the Brits might actually be forced to prematurely attack in August to help them and suffer as they did in July with Battleaxe. They weren't Crusader capable yet, nor would Rommel be as starved for supplies if Malta was kept interdicted or fell by August.

But in terms of relative strengths here is what they were in November 1941:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Crusader
Strength
British:
118,000 men[2]
738 tanks[note 1]
724 aircraft (616 serviceable)[note 2]

Axis:
119,000 men[note 3]
390[note 4]–414 tanks[note 5]
536 aircraft (342 serviceable)[note 6]
That was after reinforcements arrived post-August/September and of course the Aussies, both the 9th that would be lost at Tobruk, and the garrison 6th in Palestine, would not be part of this. Plus given the diplomatic issues between the Australian government and Churchill the loss of the 9th Australian division would very likely cause major problems, especially as in August the Australian government was demanding the Tobruk defenders be relieved because they were so worn out by the siege. Their loss in Tobruk would cause some issues about the further use of Australian troops by Britain.

Now if we factor in the historical record of Britain defending Egypt despite having superior numbers of AFVs, the chances of them holding once Tobruk was successfully removed from the equation is grim:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mersa_Matruh
As I said and the info about British armor range and reliability, German maneuver warfare and the ability of their armor to sustain it would be the decisive factor in an attack into Egypt in 1941, plus of course relative British weakness. British armor couldn't sustain major maneuver battle due to the issues with their armor and tactics, plus at this point deficiencies of Command and Control. Despite huge numerical and supply advantages the Brits very nearly lost Operation Crusader despite having all advantages you could imagine. With the Germans and Italians on the attack in September, before the Brits reached their November strength and mechanical/supply preparedness, they would dictate the place and pace of the battle, unlike the Brits historically did in November, which they don't have the reaction ability to really combat, as the 1942 fighting demonstrated. Despite the Axis troops being heavily worn down and the British having more armor at Mersa Matruh the Germans outmaneuvered them and rolled around/over them. But here the Axis forces are starting much further forward with greater numerical parity than in 1942.

Plus Operation Battleaxe in June 1941 doesn't indicate that the Brits were really up to snuff:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation ... #Aftermath

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Re: 1941: What if Germany refuses troops for North Africa

Post by BDV » 03 Jan 2017 14:35

stg 44 wrote:Now if we factor in the historical record of Britain defending Egypt despite having superior numbers of AFVs, the chances of them holding once Tobruk was successfully removed from the equation is grim:
The flip side to that is that if Italo-German forces commit the resources required to defeat Tobruk, it will be difficult to project the forces needed to push through the chokepoint at El Alamein; compounded with their historical weakness in performing frontal attacks (including at Tobruk :D ), their probability of success in breaking through towards Alexandria is practically nil.
Last edited by BDV on 03 Jan 2017 15:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1941: What if Germany refuses troops for North Africa

Post by Gooner1 » 03 Jan 2017 15:03

stg 44 wrote: That said I am convinced had the Luftwaffe not prematurely abandoned their focus on Malta starting in April (they started sending some of the interdiction forces to support Rommel in March, but that was unavoidable) they could have gotten the island to surrender by putting in the requisite efforts to limit supplies to the island to the point it could not continue to resist. By April rationing was hitting hard and it wasn't until the Luftwaffe shifted attention that enough supplies were reliably getting through to ease up the majority of supply hardship.
So, despite offering zero evidence to support your contention and the fact that ships were getting through to Malta despite the attention of the Axis air forces you remain convinced that Malta would surrendered. Ho Hum.

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Re: 1941: What if Germany refuses troops for North Africa

Post by stg 44 » 03 Jan 2017 15:44

Gooner1 wrote:
stg 44 wrote: That said I am convinced had the Luftwaffe not prematurely abandoned their focus on Malta starting in April (they started sending some of the interdiction forces to support Rommel in March, but that was unavoidable) they could have gotten the island to surrender by putting in the requisite efforts to limit supplies to the island to the point it could not continue to resist. By April rationing was hitting hard and it wasn't until the Luftwaffe shifted attention that enough supplies were reliably getting through to ease up the majority of supply hardship.
So, despite offering zero evidence to support your contention and the fact that ships were getting through to Malta despite the attention of the Axis air forces you remain convinced that Malta would surrendered. Ho Hum.
The evidence was the damage being inflicted on the island and strict rationing imposed despite some supplies getting through. Recovery was staged after the Luftwaffe drew down their efforts and then left. The trend was the island getting desperate while the Luftwaffe was making a full effort (happened again in 1942 and once again the Luftwaffe backed off to support Rommel) and it was as they left that sufficient supplies got through, same with reinforcements for the air defenses.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_ ... uperiority
On 1 March, the Luftwaffe attacks on airfields destroyed all of the Wellingtons brought in in October. Royal Navy warships and Sunderland flying boats could not use the island for offensive operations and the main fighter squadrons, Nos. 261 and 274, were put under severe pressure.[31] There were several raids per day and over 107 Axis attacks took place in February and 105 in March, with Bf 109 fighters strafing any signs of movement on the ground. By February around 14,600 men,  1⁄6 of the island's work force, had volunteered, rationing began, reducing morale even more and all males from 16–56 were conscripted to join the volunteers, the Royal Malta Artillery guarding Grand Harbour.[70][71]

The Axis air forces maintained air superiority; Hitler ordered Fliegerkorps X to protect Axis shipping, prevent Allied shipping passing through the central Mediterranean and neutralise Malta as an Allied base. Around 180 German and 300 Italian aircraft carried out the operation and the RAF struggled to fly more than 6–8 fighter sorties. Occasionally, 12 Hurricanes were flown in from British carriers but the replacements were soon used up. By mid-May, the central Mediterranean was again closed to Allied shipping and the DAK in North Africa was able to receive reinforcements, only three percent of its supplies, personnel and equipment being lost en route. From 11 April – 10 May, 111 Axis raids were carried out against military installations on Malta. Most of the heavy equipment in Grand Harbour was destroyed and the dry-docks could only be operated by hand. Efficiency of most workshops was reduced to 25–50 percent.[79]

During the first four months of German operations, the Luftwaffe dropped 2,500 tons of high explosives on Malta. It was many more times the tonnage dropped by the Italians but far short of the amount dropped the following year. More than 2,000 civilian buildings were destroyed as opposed to only 300 during the Italian siege. Civilian casualties were low and after the bombing of HMS Illustrious, most civilians moved to safer surroundings in the countryside and by May 1941, nearly 60,000 people had left the cities, some 11,000 people ( 2⁄3 of the population) leaving Valletta.[80] The British had concentrated on protecting military targets and few shelters were available for civilians. Eventually, 2,000 miners and stonemasons were recruited to build public shelters but the pay was poor and the miners threatened to strike action and were threatened with conscription into the army. The workers capitulated but instituted a go-slow, trebling the cost of the work.[81]
Even assuming that the island didn't fall, it wouldn't have been able to attack Rommel's supply lines the way it did from April-December had the Luftwaffe not drawn down and left.
BDV wrote:
stg 44 wrote:Now if we factor in the historical record of Britain defending Egypt despite having superior numbers of AFVs, the chances of them holding once Tobruk was successfully removed from the equation is grim:
The flip side to that is that if Italo-German forces commit the resources required to defeat Tobruk, it will be difficult to project the forces needed to push through the chokepoint at El Alamein; compounded with their historical weakness in performing frontal attacks (including at Tobruk :D ), their probability of success in breaking through towards Alexandria is practically nil.
Tobruk was actually probably about as ripe to take in August before the Aussies left than ever due to the apparently deteriorated conditions of the men, due to lack of clean water. Had Rommel the supplies to do so due to Malta not interdicting him, he could have taken it at a reasonable cost and probably using mostly Italians to save his German manpower for his next offensive. El Alamein wasn't the choke point it became historically in 1942 yet in 1941, so projecting the forces there in 1941 is more an issue of supply and given that he'd be starting much further forward and just have to punch through the Frontier wire, there wouldn't be nearly the reinforcements the Brits had in reserve to get to Alamein as in 1942.

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Re: 1941: What if Germany refuses troops for North Africa

Post by BDV » 03 Jan 2017 16:28

stg 44 wrote: "BDV":
The flip side to that is that if Italo-German forces commit the resources required to defeat Tobruk, it will be difficult to project the forces needed to push through the chokepoint at El Alamein; compounded with their historical weakness in performing frontal attacks (including at Tobruk :D ), their probability of success in breaking through towards Alexandria is practically nil.


Tobruk was actually probably about as ripe to take in August before the Aussies left than ever due to the apparently deteriorated conditions of the men, due to lack of clean water. Had Rommel the supplies to do so due to Malta not interdicting him, he could have taken it at a reasonable cost and probably using mostly Italians to save his German manpower for his next offensive. El Alamein wasn't the choke point it became historically in 1942 yet in 1941, so projecting the forces there in 1941 is more an issue of supply and given that he'd be starting much further forward and just have to punch through the Frontier wire, there wouldn't be nearly the reinforcements the Brits had in reserve to get to Alamein as in 1942.

So what do the Italo-Germans give up to capture Malta and Tobruk? Where do these resources come from?

Also the arrival of the April convoy "after LW let up" shows that Brits were willing to push the convoy through. The convoys were ordered and organized before the let up. The let up was a welcome respite, but not the cause of the convoys. Italo-Germans were to get Malta at a cost, not for free.
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Re: 1941: What if Germany refuses troops for North Africa

Post by Gooner1 » 03 Jan 2017 17:05

stg 44 wrote:[The evidence was the damage being inflicted on the island and strict rationing imposed despite some supplies getting through. Recovery was staged after the Luftwaffe drew down their efforts and then left. The trend was the island getting desperate while the Luftwaffe was making a full effort (happened again in 1942 and once again the Luftwaffe backed off to support Rommel) and it was as they left that sufficient supplies got through, same with reinforcements for the air defenses.
The strict rationing was of: Sugar, soap, matches and coffee. :D http://timewitnesses.org/english/~carmelina2.html

"At the end of May it was calculated that by rigid control the stocks in Malta could be made to last until January 1942, with the exception of aviation spirit which at the present rate would last only until September. The ration of kerosene had also to be cut, and as kerosene supplied heat as well as light a reduction meant fewer hot meals for the population."

"From mid-January onwards Malta's air defences had been severely tested and her striking power greatly hampered, but by the end of May both were stronger than they had been at the beginning of the Luftwaffe's attacks."

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/U ... d-2-3.html

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Re: 1941: What if Germany refuses troops for North Africa

Post by Gooner1 » 03 Jan 2017 17:06

BDV wrote: So what do the Italo-Germans give up to capture Malta and Tobruk? Where do these resources come from?
Barbarossa, innit.

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Re: 1941: What if Germany refuses troops for North Africa

Post by stg 44 » 03 Jan 2017 17:49

BDV wrote: So what do the Italo-Germans give up to capture Malta and Tobruk? Where do these resources come from?
They just wait to move their air units in Sicily to Greece until Malta has surrendered. They mostly sat around in Greece for the rest of 1941, occasionally raiding Egypt with a handful of aircraft. The Stuka wing would end up in Russia though. I'm not aware of any other X. Fliegerkorps units that were sent to Russia in 1941.
Gooner1 wrote: Barbarossa, innit.
While that would certainly help, no. Just not moving their units to Greece until Malta was finished. The thought was they could move units there and either take the offensive or defend the Aegean against the Brits. The thing was after Crete the Brits were in no condition to threaten the Aegean in 1941, so all they are doing is giving up minor peace of mind by garrisoning that area with air units, while letting the Brits recover in Malta
BDV wrote: Also the arrival of the April convoy "after LW let up" shows that Brits were willing to push the convoy through. The convoys were ordered and organized before the let up. The let up was a welcome respite, but not the cause of the convoys. Italo-Germans were to get Malta at a cost, not for free.
Correct, once the LW shifted about and took pressure off of Malta the Brits were willing to hold out, I overstated the case initially that they had totally given up on it, but they were careful about sending convoys. Nothing was free, forcing Malta to surrender wouldn't be without effort.
Gooner1 wrote: The strict rationing was of: Sugar, soap, matches and coffee. :D http://timewitnesses.org/english/~carmelina2.html

"At the end of May it was calculated that by rigid control the stocks in Malta could be made to last until January 1942, with the exception of aviation spirit which at the present rate would last only until September. The ration of kerosene had also to be cut, and as kerosene supplied heat as well as light a reduction meant fewer hot meals for the population."

"From mid-January onwards Malta's air defences had been severely tested and her striking power greatly hampered, but by the end of May both were stronger than they had been at the beginning of the Luftwaffe's attacks."

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/U ... d-2-3.html
At the end of May? You mean after the Luftwaffe left and multiple convoys had gotten through since April. That is a very different situation than existed at the beginning of April. By May too fighter reinforcements had been flown in since the LW departed and more troops brought in. So yes of course after the LW left the British were stronger due to reinforcements and a bunch of supplies getting in without significant harassment.

http://timewitnesses.org/english/~carmelina2.html
From your source:
In summer 1941, two large convoys enabled the replenishment of the seven-month reserve. As reserves were dwindling, experts reported on "Rationing in Malta" that supported the subsistence of the poorer classes.
By Summer the Luftwaffe had left, they were gone in late Spring, so the convoys showed up AFTER the Luftwaffe left it to the Italians to blockade Malta.

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Re: 1941: What if Germany refuses troops for North Africa

Post by Gooner1 » 03 Jan 2017 18:12

stg 44 wrote:At the end of May? You mean after the Luftwaffe left and multiple convoys had gotten through since April. That is a very different situation than existed at the beginning of April. By May too fighter reinforcements had been flown in since the LW departed and more troops brought in. So yes of course after the LW left the British were stronger due to reinforcements and a bunch of supplies getting in without significant harassment.
19.2.41 AJAX, GLOUCESTER, ORION troops to Malta
19.3.41 Convoy WM 6 sailed Haifa & Alexandria
 2.4.41 Op WINCH, fighters to Malta
17.4.41 Op TEMPLE passed Gibraltar for Malta
18.4.41 BRECONSHIRE sailed Alexandria for Malta
19.4.41 Convoy ME 7 sailed Malta
 24.4.41 Op SALIENT sailed Malta
25.4.41 Op DUNLOP, fighters to Malta
28.4.41 BRECONSHIRE sailed Alexandria for Malta

http://www.naval-history.net/xAH-MaltaSupply03.htm

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Re: 1941: What if Germany refuses troops for North Africa

Post by Urmel » 03 Jan 2017 18:38

Didn't the TIGER convoy also include ships destined for Malta?
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: 1941: What if Germany refuses troops for North Africa

Post by stg 44 » 03 Jan 2017 18:42

Gooner1 wrote:
stg 44 wrote:At the end of May? You mean after the Luftwaffe left and multiple convoys had gotten through since April. That is a very different situation than existed at the beginning of April. By May too fighter reinforcements had been flown in since the LW departed and more troops brought in. So yes of course after the LW left the British were stronger due to reinforcements and a bunch of supplies getting in without significant harassment.
19.2.41 AJAX, GLOUCESTER, ORION troops to Malta
19.3.41 Convoy WM 6 sailed Haifa & Alexandria
 2.4.41 Op WINCH, fighters to Malta
17.4.41 Op TEMPLE passed Gibraltar for Malta
18.4.41 BRECONSHIRE sailed Alexandria for Malta
19.4.41 Convoy ME 7 sailed Malta
 24.4.41 Op SALIENT sailed Malta
25.4.41 Op DUNLOP, fighters to Malta
28.4.41 BRECONSHIRE sailed Alexandria for Malta

http://www.naval-history.net/xAH-MaltaSupply03.htm
Two convoys in February and March at the peak of the interdiction, then in April after the LW drew down operations and started shifting forces, the RN sends 1 convoy and several naval ships/fighter transport missions.

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Re: 1941: What if Germany refuses troops for North Africa

Post by stg 44 » 03 Jan 2017 18:44

Gooner1 wrote: 19.2.41 AJAX, GLOUCESTER, ORION troops to Malta
19.3.41 Convoy WM 6 sailed Haifa & Alexandria
 2.4.41 Op WINCH, fighters to Malta
17.4.41 Op TEMPLE passed Gibraltar for Malta
18.4.41 BRECONSHIRE sailed Alexandria for Malta
19.4.41 Convoy ME 7 sailed Malta
 24.4.41 Op SALIENT sailed Malta
25.4.41 Op DUNLOP, fighters to Malta
28.4.41 BRECONSHIRE sailed Alexandria for Malta

http://www.naval-history.net/xAH-MaltaSupply03.htm
Two convoys in February and March at the peak of the interdiction, then in April after the LW drew down operations and started shifting forces, the RN sends 1 convoy and several naval ships/fighter transport missions.
Urmel wrote:Didn't the TIGER convoy also include ships destined for Malta?
No, it was for Alexandria:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malta_Con ... and_Splice
Operation Tiger, a five ship supply convoy from Gibraltar to Alexandria coincided with reinforcements for the Mediterranean Fleet, six ship convoy MW 7 from Egypt to Malta and 48 more Hurricanes flown off HMS Ark Royal and Furious in Operation Splice. he only loss was the 9,200-gross register ton (GRT) cargo ship Empire Song, which hit a mine and sank with a cargo of 57 tanks, ten aircraft and several trucks. Tiger carried tanks Matilda and the new Crusader Tank for the Western Desert Campaign in North Africa. These had been intended to be sent around the Cape but were diverted via the Mediterranean and over 200 tanks reached Alexandria on 12 May. The Luftwaffe transferred much of its strength from Sicily to prepare for the Operation Barbarossa, the invasion of the USSR, relieving some of the pressure on Malta. The Malta-based submarine HMS Upholder attacked and sank the large Italian troop transport Conte Rosso.[28]
The LW forces they mention transferred for Barbarossa was just the 1 wing of Stukas AFAIK. The majority of bombers, He111s and Ju88s, stayed in the Mediterranean, but left Sicily.

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Re: 1941: What if Germany refuses troops for North Africa

Post by Urmel » 04 Jan 2017 15:11

stg 44 wrote:Despite making successful runs by April, when Luftwaffe operations were winding
.

Number of air raid alerts January: 58
Number of air raid alerts February: 107
Number of air raid alerts March: 109 (days without alert: 0)
Number of air raid alerts April: 90 (days without alert: 4)
Number of air raid alerts May: 97 (days without alert: 2)

Specifically on April: "The month was notable for greatly increased air activity by German aircraft at night, partly due to the arrival in Malta of a convoy and war vessels. "

http://www.maltagc70.com/

That's not really much of a winding down. In fact, both April and May saw heavier bombing attacks than March:

See table at bottom of page
stg 44 wrote:That said I am convinced had the Luftwaffe not prematurely abandoned their focus on Malta starting in April (they started sending some of the interdiction forces to support Rommel in March, but that was unavoidable) they could have gotten the island to surrender by putting in the requisite efforts to limit supplies to the island to the point it could not continue to resist. By April rationing was hitting hard and it wasn't until the Luftwaffe shifted attention that enough supplies were reliably getting through to ease up the majority of supply hardship.
As pointed out above, where is the evidence that the LW "prematurely abandoned their focus" in April? The Times of Malta states it came in mid-May:

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/vi ... -in.389441
stg 44 wrote: The only numbers you provided are when AFV shipments were received, which doesn't tell us how many were operational or even deployed to the front. In 1942 hundreds of British Cruiser tanks were immobilized with mechanical issues and were not even desert-ized so required major work to get running for use in Egypt/Libya, a similar situation I'm sure existed in 1941.
You are sure because of what? Because Wikipedia shows something you would like to believe in for a year later? That's supposed to be your evidence? Is this supposed to be a joke or an insult to those of us who actually do some research?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusader_tank#Performance

How is this extensive quote relevant? Do you have any idea what the issue with reliability was during the first major operations?

https://rommelsriposte.com/2011/10/22/s ... der-tanks/ (note that these were used tanks that had been issued, which also had taken a long road march to get to the zone of operations)

https://rommelsriposte.com/2009/01/11/m ... -crusader/
stg 44 wrote:For all the problems of the Crusader tank, the Stuart apparently was even less useful.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M3_Stuart ... and_Europe
From mid-November 1941 to the end of the year, about 170 Stuarts (in a total force of over 700 tanks) took part in Operation Crusader during the North Africa Campaign, with poor results.


Really? You are aware that the British won Operation CRUSADER, right? The reality isn't as straightforward:

https://rommelsriposte.com/2011/10/13/t ... ir-shop-2/

https://rommelsriposte.com/2014/09/29/a ... uart-tank/
stg 44 wrote:So we have no idea of the actual combat strength of armor deployed by September, as there were major issues with 2/3rds of British AFV types.
Err, you've just made that up. You are of course aware that 100% of British tanks showed up for the battle in November despite, as you claim, 67% having major issues. Are you aware of the term 'grasping for straws'?
stg 44 wrote:The other numbers you provided were of the number and name of British divisions, as I pointed out the Aussies were pretty worn down by August anyway
Yes the Aussies were worn out, but... i) the specific issue mentioned was 'ability to withstand sustained assault', ii) guess what, the Axis forces weren't exactly fresh either, with sickness cases rising in the German forces through summer; iii) despite being 'worn out', offensive operations were being considered by Morshead. So it's far from an open and shut case that the Aussies would just have rolled over if attacked.

https://www.awm.gov.au/images/collectio ... 59--1-.pdf
stg 44 wrote: ... and were due to the replaced and would have been eliminated from the British OOB by the storming of Tobruk along with whatever sundry units were there.
Yes, and that would magically happened at no cost whatsoever to the Axis?
stg 44 wrote: Plus then you didn't actually provide numbers about how many troops were in British units and how up to strength they actually were.
Yeah well, it sucks when people don't do their research, don't it? But hey, how about you do some real research rather than pretending Wikipedia can give us the answers, and when I see that I dig deeper too?
stg 44 wrote:With Rommel storming Tobruk, the Brits might actually be forced to prematurely attack in August to help them and suffer as they did in July with Battleaxe. They weren't Crusader capable yet, nor would Rommel be as starved for supplies if Malta was kept interdicted or fell by August.
Starved for supplies? Please set out the percentage of supplies lost in each month, May, June, July, August, and how that impacted the Axis situation so gravely.
stg 44 wrote:But in terms of relative strengths here is what they were in November 1941
yeah, but now we are in August, so how is this even remotely relevant?
stg 44 wrote:That was after reinforcements arrived post-August/September and of course the Aussies, both the 9th that would be lost at Tobruk, and the garrison 6th in Palestine, would not be part of this.
So i) the Axis takes Tobruk at no cost to itself, and ii) you contend that when the British are about to lose Egypt, they won't call up 6 Australian Division? Seriously? Ho hum.
stg 44 wrote:Plus given the diplomatic issues between the Australian government and Churchill the loss of the 9th Australian division would very likely cause major problems, especially as in August the Australian government was demanding the Tobruk defenders be relieved because they were so worn out by the siege. Their loss in Tobruk would cause some issues about the further use of Australian troops by Britain.
Where does this say anything specific about the conditions of the troops, specifically them being worn out?

http://anzacportal.dva.gov.au/history/p ... ian-relief
stg 44 wrote:Now if we factor in the historical record of Britain defending Egypt despite having superior numbers of AFVs, the chances of them holding once Tobruk was successfully removed from the equation is grim:
I snipped the lengthy and irrelevant quote, because it was, well irrelevant. The Allies defended Egypt after all, in case you forgot. So all this talk about them not being able to do maneuver warfare is just so much handwaving.

What you have failed to set out is:

1) That the LW really did abandon the attack on Malta in April
2) The actual losses suffered in Axis supply transit across the Med in the months May-July
3) The relative strength positions of the opposing forces in August
4) The existence of a plan by Rommel to take Tobruk in August - I am not aware that it existed, but happy to be shown the evidence for it and learn something new
5) A credible assessment of the cost to the Axis of taking Tobruk in August 1941, and how that would impact their ability to march into Egypt, and on item 3) above

That's all I can think of, but I am sure there are more holes in your argument.

Here's a hint: you won't find the answers in Wikipedia.
Last edited by Urmel on 04 Jan 2017 15:32, edited 4 times in total.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Urmel
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Re: 1941: What if Germany refuses troops for North Africa

Post by Urmel » 04 Jan 2017 15:18

stg 44 wrote:
Urmel wrote:Didn't the TIGER convoy also include ships destined for Malta?
No, it was for Alexandria:
Thanks. I got confused with the Alex - Malta ops.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: 1941: What if Germany refuses troops for North Africa

Post by stg 44 » 04 Jan 2017 17:09

Urmel wrote:
stg 44 wrote:Despite making successful runs by April, when Luftwaffe operations were winding
.

Number of air raid alerts January: 58
Number of air raid alerts February: 107
Number of air raid alerts March: 109 (days without alert: 0)
Number of air raid alerts April: 90 (days without alert: 4)
Number of air raid alerts May: 97 (days without alert: 2)

Specifically on April: "The month was notable for greatly increased air activity by German aircraft at night, partly due to the arrival in Malta of a convoy and war vessels. "

http://www.maltagc70.com/

That's not really much of a winding down. In fact, both April and May saw heavier bombing attacks than March:

See table at bottom of page
Can't get into the rest of the post right now, but even going by the above both May and April has fewer alerts than March, which belies your point that May and April were and increase in raids. Not only that, but in April your link says there was only an increase in NIGHT raids, not raids in general. The Axis shifted to night to lay mines and attack with less risk, especially as their numbers declined due to air power being shifted elsewhere and Stuka support being stripped.

Your google books link won't let me look at the page, so I can't see what table you are talking about. Also the number of raids isn't the only issue, they could have increased raids by using few aircraft and spreading things out, the better metric would be bomb tonnage dropped in the month and probably even more helpful by the week, so we could see when the tapering off happened.

The transfer of Luftwaffe aircraft in May is when the bulk of the transfers happened, though the tapering off of attacks began in April to get units ready for the transfer by taking them out of action, resting the crews, doing maintenance on the aircraft, and preparing ground equipment for transfer; just because a transfer happens on one day doesn't mean all the work that went into making it happen happened all on one day. Also I did see that some Stukas were transferred to the Balkans for the invasion of Yugoslavia and Greece in April. I'd also add that the tapering didn't just happening for the move to Greece/Crete, but also to help support Rommel starting in March. But as your own numbers of the raids indicate above April had the lowest number of raids, May slightly increased, but still lower than March. March was the peak of raids and May was still lower than February. It would be helpful to know what tonnage was per month if anyone has numbers.

I'll try to get to the rest of your post later today.

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