The netherlands in ww1

[Aber]

And not so good for the Dutch - they almost certainly lose all their colonies.

[princeliberty10311517]

And not so good for the Dutch - they almost certainly lose all their colonies.

Unless the Germans conquer France and win - then they get them back plus more.

[ljadw]

How? Unless Britain would give up,there was nothing that Germany could do about a redistribution of the colonies .

[princeliberty10311517]

That's get into the what if of exactly how the war ends. But Germany for one thing has conquered France so Holland can expand at their expense.

So if England wants to continue to fight the war over the issue of the colonies the Germans can begin the move on the Med. and the Middle East.

[Terry Duncan]

the Germans coming Holland can left flank the British and Belgium army so at least all Beligum and probably all of France to the north of the Somme is taken by the Germans even in your out of the blue Holland declares war - leaving Germany in stronger position for the war of attrition in 1915.

The British and French deployment is hardly likely to be so far forward in this sort of scenario, so the problem with being flanked and having to retreat so far may never happen. Remember much of the retreat was due to the poor strategic position after having advanced too far blindly. Knowing the Germans have masses passing through Holland and Belgium is likely to see the British and French adopt a far more defensive position with the left wing.

That's get into the what if of exactly how the war ends. But Germany for one thing has conquered France so Holland can expand at their expense.

Germany is likely to get as close to conquering France as she is to invading the Moon. That she did so well in 1914 is largely due to blind French stupidity and holding onto a plan that is no longer viable. Germany can only win if France holds to a frontal attack and ignores the left wing problem too long. This scenario makes it very clear that the left is in far more danger from the outset, and that the Germans have even more troops due to the Dutch abandonment of neutrality, leaving the left where it can only hold if reinforced heavily fast. The French may have been wilful in 1914, but as soon as th danger became all too obvious, they abandoned their plan and thwarted the German attack by operating on shorter communication lines.

[glenn239]

Knowing the Germans have masses passing through Holland and Belgium is likely to see the British and French adopt a far more defensive position with the left wing.

That’s pure speculation on your part. The fact is that Joffre was resistant to understanding the danger of the German right to him, and drowned any doubts he might have had in a sea of half-baked rationalisations. Only when his central force of 3rd and 4th armies were badly repulsed did he finally wake up.

Ergo, P Lib makes a good point in that with the Netherlands in the war. As the Germans have the operational depth to allow the French centre to advance northeast into the cul de sac in the Ardennes while the German right sweeps past, there was some level of danger to a large scale encirclement.

Germany is likely to get as close to conquering France as she is to invading the Moon. That she did so well in 1914 is largely due to blind French stupidity

As French stupidity was the one commodity flowing from Joffre’s headquarters in abundance in August 1914, the first part of your sentence is unfounded. The situation was that the Germans required French mistakes to win.

[Terry Duncan]

That’s pure speculation on your part.

Nope. Its based upon the fact that the French planned their advance on the basis the Belgian fortresses at Liege presented a block to the German advance. With the Germans able to move through Holland this blockage becomes far less significant. It is rather indicative of desperation to suggest this would not alter the French decisions, especially as it would likely meanth at the Germans would be at their designated formation point before they and the British could reach the area.

As French stupidity was the one commodity flowing from Joffre’s headquarters in abundance in August 1914, the first part of your sentence is unfounded. The situation was that the Germans required French mistakes to win.

As the French made a very large number of mistakes and still defeated the Germans at the Marne, it is likely this is going to be about as close as Germany could come until the advent of motorized and armoured units. If an AH idea requires even more extreme mistakes that took place, and often even more of them, it is rather far fetched to say the least. I doubt you would be supporting anyone claiming that von Kluck would continue his rather dangerous march across the front and allow the entire German right wing to fall into a massive envelopment, so why presume the French are going to act with blind stupidity? After all, as soon as the scale of the attack on their left wing becomes known, it cannot work if the French move troops to oppose it. It even fails if the French fall back and do not stand in place waiting to be caught. Play out this scenario with any objectivity and it will end in a stalemate.

[princeliberty10311517]

the Germans coming Holland can left flank the British and Belgium army so at least all Beligum and probably all of France to the north of the Somme is taken by the Germans even in your out of the blue Holland declares war - leaving Germany in stronger position for the war of attrition in 1915.

The British and French deployment is hardly likely to be so far forward in this sort of scenario, so the problem with being flanked and having to retreat so far may never happen. Remember much of the retreat was due to the poor strategic position after having advanced too far blindly. Knowing the Germans have masses passing through Holland and Belgium is likely to see the British and French adopt a far more defensive position with the left wing.

That's get into the what if of exactly how the war ends. But Germany for one thing has conquered France so Holland can expand at their expense.

Germany is likely to get as close to conquering France as she is to invading the Moon. That she did so well in 1914 is largely due to blind French stupidity and holding onto a plan that is no longer viable. Germany can only win if France holds to a frontal attack and ignores the left wing problem too long. This scenario makes it very clear that the left is in far more danger from the outset, and that the Germans have even more troops due to the Dutch abandonment of neutrality, leaving the left where it can only hold if reinforced heavily fast. The French may have been wilful in 1914, but as soon as th danger became all too obvious, they abandoned their plan and thwarted the German attack by operating on shorter communication lines.

I wasn't talking about Germany conquering France in 1914 - I just said this would likely enable them to bag the rest of Belgium and France north of the Somme.

[Terry Duncan]

I wasn't talking about Germany conquering France in 1914 - I just said this would likely enable them to bag the rest of Belgium and France north of the Somme.

To be honest, other than abject French stupidity above and beyond that shown in either 1914 or 1940 would have allowed that, as the speed of the advance and the ability to stay in supply was not there until the time of mechanized warfare.

[princeliberty10311517]

Eh?! You don't need trucks to get to the Somme coming from Holland and Belgium.

Your rather overstating the logistical problems.

[Terry Duncan]

Eh?! You don't need trucks to get to the Somme coming from Holland and Belgium.

The Marne is about 50 miles further than the Somme, and it was at the Marne that the Germans ran out of supply. The French had considered retreating further to stabilize the line before couterattacking, and this was after hanging out their left wing in one of the most absurd displays on military stupidity. The Germans had to catch them and surround them, not just follow, and without motorized units, the ability of all troops to march is somewhat similar.

Your rather overstating the logistical problems.

Maybe you should write a thesis on that then, as the general version is that the German retreat to the Aisne was entirely to stabilize their line and to be able to supply it.

[princeliberty10311517]

Netherlands in this what if joined from the first days of the invasion.

So German forces advance to the somme even before the defeat at the Marne.

The Germans would go further west to first get behind the Belgium forts and then to flank the British rather
than at headlong assualt at Mons.

[Terry Duncan]

Netherlands in this what if joined from the first days of the invasion.

Yes, and that alone would remove the delay Liege was expected to inflict, so the Anglo-French forces are hardly likely to deploy so far forward as it means running into a rather large number of enemies far sooner.

So German forces advance to the somme even before the defeat at the Marne.

As they have to pass the Somme to get to the Marne that is hardly a surprise.

The Germans would go further west to first get behind the Belgium forts and then to flank the British rather
than at headlong assualt at Mons.

The British and French are unlikely to actually deploy anywhere near Mons in this instance, it is too far forward and close to the enemy. This means the Germans will have to advance even further before meeting any troops.

[princeliberty10311517]

Then Germans are likely to advance even further into France under this what if and grab land south of the Somme
and the German right may get near the Aisne.

I agree its very unlikely that the Germans now take France. The Germans leadership at the top is still weak and
the logistics are difficult. Its not impossible logistically but very difficult leaving very little margin for error.

But this would leave the Germans with more of France, all of Belgium (and the conquest of Belgium would go faster with fewer losses). The Germans would enter 1915 in a much stronger position than in real life.

[Terry Duncan]

Then Germans are likely to advance even further into France under this what if and grab land south of the Somme
and the German right may get near the Aisne.

They went a lot further than the Somme in 1914. The retreat and subsequent stand on the Aisne is simply because it would be hard to find better defensive terrain. They passed it on the way to the Marne.

I agree its very unlikely that the Germans now take France. The Germans leadership at the top is still weak and
the logistics are difficult. Its not impossible logistically but very difficult leaving very little margin for error.

The German command, and Moltke in particular, are blamed for not achieving miracles in 1914. it seems to never occur to people that maybe they actually did as well as could be expected and came very close to a stunning victory. Certainly the French made stupid decisions that almost caused them to lose, but without motorized transport it is hard to keep units in supply during such a long advance.

But this would leave the Germans with more of France, all of Belgium (and the conquest of Belgium would go faster with fewer losses). The Germans would enter 1915 in a much stronger position than in real life

.

Not if they stop on the Aisne, that is the historical stop point. Maybe if they could stop at the Marne, but that will require the supply to have rail lines fixed, tunnels cleared after they were collapsed, bridges rebuilt, and the ability to keep the guns supplied - even the main depots wererunning low as expediture ran far above the expected figures.