No Tunisgrad

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ljadw
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Re: No Tunisgrad

Post by ljadw » 03 Sep 2023 19:21

KDF33 wrote:
03 Sep 2023 18:12
ljadw wrote:
03 Sep 2023 17:58
If 36 IB started earlier, so would do the Axis .And you forget that its supplies had to be transported by rail, and as the Tunisian and Algerian railways had different gauges ...
Tabarka is close to the border with Algeria,while Bizerta is farther away and ,what was the strength of the 36 IB ?
Bougie-Tabarka and Bone-Bizerte can not be compared .Bone was also considered as a citadel of fascism in Algeria (there were a lot of Italians in Bone ) .
You are wrong, ljadw.
I said that Bougie-Tabarka and Bone -Bizerte could not be compared .If you are in Tabarka, you are still 135 km away from Bizerte . A distance of 135 km in Tunisia is not a distance of 135 km in Algeria . If you can go from Bougie to Tabarka in 2 days, this does not mean that you can go from Bone to Bizerte in 2 days .
Prove that I am wrong and that they could be compared .

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Aida1
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Re: No Tunisgrad

Post by Aida1 » 03 Sep 2023 19:37

ljadw wrote:
03 Sep 2023 17:58
Aber wrote:
03 Sep 2023 17:25
ljadw wrote:
03 Sep 2023 16:39
:distance Bone-Bizerte is 263 km
OTL 36th Infantry Brigade reached Tabarka on 15 November, having landed at Bougie on 11 November (450km+), but only started their advance on the 13th.

If they start from Bone on 9 November, they can reach Bizerte on 11 November. First Axis ship did not arrive until 12 November; Axis fighting strength at 17 November was less than a thousand at Tunis (air-landed) and 4,000 at Bizerte (sea-landed). Holding the port prevents the Axis build-up.
If 36 IB started earlier, so would do the Axis .And you forget that its supplies had to be transported by rail, and as the Tunisian and Algerian railways had different gauges ...
Tabarka is close to the border with Algeria,while Bizerta is farther away and ,what was the strength of the 36 IB ?
Bougie-Tabarka and Bone-Bizerte can not be compared .Bone was also considered as a citadel of fascism in Algeria (there were a lot of Italians in Bone ) .
Again totally ignoring that the allies can land near Bizerta and the axis cannot bring in substantial forces quickly.

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Aida1
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Re: No Tunisgrad

Post by Aida1 » 03 Sep 2023 19:38

ljadw wrote:
03 Sep 2023 19:21
KDF33 wrote:
03 Sep 2023 18:12
ljadw wrote:
03 Sep 2023 17:58
If 36 IB started earlier, so would do the Axis .And you forget that its supplies had to be transported by rail, and as the Tunisian and Algerian railways had different gauges ...
Tabarka is close to the border with Algeria,while Bizerta is farther away and ,what was the strength of the 36 IB ?
Bougie-Tabarka and Bone-Bizerte can not be compared .Bone was also considered as a citadel of fascism in Algeria (there were a lot of Italians in Bone ) .
You are wrong, ljadw.
I said that Bougie-Tabarka and Bone -Bizerte could not be compared .If you are in Tabarka, you are still 135 km away from Bizerte . A distance of 135 km in Tunisia is not a distance of 135 km in Algeria . If you can go from Bougie to Tabarka in 2 days, this does not mean that you can go from Bone to Bizerte in 2 days .
Prove that I am wrong and that they could be compared .
Bluffing as always without really knowing anything about it at all.

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Aida1
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Re: No Tunisgrad

Post by Aida1 » 03 Sep 2023 19:40

ljadw wrote:
03 Sep 2023 17:12
Aida1 wrote:
03 Sep 2023 16:56
ljadw wrote:
03 Sep 2023 16:39
Aida1 wrote:
03 Sep 2023 14:26
ljadw wrote:
03 Sep 2023 13:53
Still the issue and you have to prove that your scenario is possible .
If the allies can land in Bone, they can land further east too.

Does not make a massive difference except in the results obtained.
1 Unproved claim with a media value .And, if they can land further east too, why did they not land in Tunis,or Tripoli, or Rome ?
2 Why not a massive difference ?
3 Again :distance Bone-Bizerte is 263 km ,which means that an invasion fleet of 100 MV and a lot of warships would need one day more to sail from Bone to Bizerte .
And where would the allies get these men,these supplies, these MV ,these warships ? How many men and supplies would be needed at Bizerte and how long could they block a German advance ?
And, if it was so easy, why did Britain not do it on its own ?
The Combined Co S refused to land at Bizerte . They knew more than you, they had more experience than you .
Were Brooke, Portal,Pound, Marshall, King, Arnold that stupid that they did not see that there was an unique opportunity waiting to be used and that its use would shorten the war in NA by 6 months ?
Reality is that 8th army captured Tripoli at 23 January ,but entered Tunisia only on 5 February .And 8th army was much stronger than the Torch forces .
Reality is also that the Germans were in Tunisia already on 9 November, very soon followed by thousands of Italians .
You have to prove that the Allies could send faster more men and supplies to Tunisia, unload them,storage them and advance to Tunis.Faster than the Axis was sending men and supplies to Tunisia .
As long as you can't give any proofs, we can ignore what you are telling .
The usual nonsense. This is about replacing the most western landing with a more eastern one so everything shifts. No more resources needed. You ignore the disagreement on this between the british and the US. You could even have read that in this thread because it has been explained. :roll:
Why did the British not land at Bone without the Americans ?
Tell us .
Again total nonsense as the allies needed to agree. :roll:

ljadw
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Re: No Tunisgrad

Post by ljadw » 03 Sep 2023 19:51

The US could not order Britain not to land at Bone .

KDF33
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Re: No Tunisgrad

Post by KDF33 » 03 Sep 2023 19:52

ljadw wrote:
03 Sep 2023 19:18
I said that Bougie-Tabarka and Bone -Bizerte could not be compared .If you are in Tabarka, you are still 135 km away from Bizerte . A distance of 135 km in Tunisia is not a distance of 135 km in Algeria .
Prove that I am wrong and that they could be compared .
You don't understand.

When I say that you are wrong, I'm not discussing any specific issue. I mean it from an ontological perspective.

ljadw
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Re: No Tunisgrad

Post by ljadw » 03 Sep 2023 19:55

Aida1 wrote:
03 Sep 2023 19:37
ljadw wrote:
03 Sep 2023 17:58
Aber wrote:
03 Sep 2023 17:25
ljadw wrote:
03 Sep 2023 16:39
:distance Bone-Bizerte is 263 km
OTL 36th Infantry Brigade reached Tabarka on 15 November, having landed at Bougie on 11 November (450km+), but only started their advance on the 13th.

If they start from Bone on 9 November, they can reach Bizerte on 11 November. First Axis ship did not arrive until 12 November; Axis fighting strength at 17 November was less than a thousand at Tunis (air-landed) and 4,000 at Bizerte (sea-landed). Holding the port prevents the Axis build-up.
If 36 IB started earlier, so would do the Axis .And you forget that its supplies had to be transported by rail, and as the Tunisian and Algerian railways had different gauges ...
Tabarka is close to the border with Algeria,while Bizerta is farther away and ,what was the strength of the 36 IB ?
Bougie-Tabarka and Bone-Bizerte can not be compared .Bone was also considered as a citadel of fascism in Algeria (there were a lot of Italians in Bone ) .
Again totally ignoring that the allies can land near Bizerta and the axis cannot bring in substantial forces quickly.
Prove that the Allies can land near Bizerta
Prove that the Axis cannot bring in substantial forces quickly : you are proved to be wrong: the Axis were bringing in substantial forces quickly .

ljadw
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Re: No Tunisgrad

Post by ljadw » 04 Sep 2023 05:30

KDF33 wrote:
03 Sep 2023 19:52
ljadw wrote:
03 Sep 2023 19:18
I said that Bougie-Tabarka and Bone -Bizerte could not be compared .If you are in Tabarka, you are still 135 km away from Bizerte . A distance of 135 km in Tunisia is not a distance of 135 km in Algeria .
Prove that I am wrong and that they could be compared .
You don't understand.

When I say that you are wrong, I'm not discussing any specific issue. I mean it from an ontological perspective.
I will answer as Grouchy smurf : I dislike people who talk about irrelevant things as ontological perspective .

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Aida1
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Re: No Tunisgrad

Post by Aida1 » 04 Sep 2023 07:25

ljadw wrote:
03 Sep 2023 19:55
Aida1 wrote:
03 Sep 2023 19:37
ljadw wrote:
03 Sep 2023 17:58
Aber wrote:
03 Sep 2023 17:25
ljadw wrote:
03 Sep 2023 16:39
:distance Bone-Bizerte is 263 km
OTL 36th Infantry Brigade reached Tabarka on 15 November, having landed at Bougie on 11 November (450km+), but only started their advance on the 13th.

If they start from Bone on 9 November, they can reach Bizerte on 11 November. First Axis ship did not arrive until 12 November; Axis fighting strength at 17 November was less than a thousand at Tunis (air-landed) and 4,000 at Bizerte (sea-landed). Holding the port prevents the Axis build-up.
If 36 IB started earlier, so would do the Axis .And you forget that its supplies had to be transported by rail, and as the Tunisian and Algerian railways had different gauges ...
Tabarka is close to the border with Algeria,while Bizerta is farther away and ,what was the strength of the 36 IB ?
Bougie-Tabarka and Bone-Bizerte can not be compared .Bone was also considered as a citadel of fascism in Algeria (there were a lot of Italians in Bone ) .
Again totally ignoring that the allies can land near Bizerta and the axis cannot bring in substantial forces quickly.
Prove that the Allies can land near Bizerta
Prove that the Axis cannot bring in substantial forces quickly : you are proved to be wrong: the Axis were bringing in substantial forces quickly .
Nothing can prevent the allies from landing nearer Bizerta and the Axis cannot bring substantial forces in because that needs to be done by sea.

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Aida1
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Re: No Tunisgrad

Post by Aida1 » 04 Sep 2023 07:27

ljadw wrote:
03 Sep 2023 19:51
The US could not order Britain not to land at Bone .
Pure nonsense as always. :roll:

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Terry Duncan
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Re: No Tunisgrad

Post by Terry Duncan » 04 Sep 2023 09:02

As it appears people cannot refrain from making personal comments this topic is locked as previously mentioned.

Terry

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