4 Panzer Division Africa Korps and Postponed Barbarossa

[Buchan]

At the start of 1941 on General Von Thoma's advice Hitler dispatches a 4 Division Panzer offensive force (the most the logistics of Libya can take Von Thoma inspection revealed) to Libya.
He was intending to send 1 Division as a blocking force and concentrate on the Soviet Union however it was decided that that finishing off the English was to good an opportunity to miss.
Barbarossa is instead postponed for a year.
I will do my following prediction of events in stages as im short of time right now.
The first I would predict the fall of all of Egypt by June/July 1941 which I will get to in more detail when I get back.

Any thoughts so far?

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Try prosponing Barbarossa indefinitely- or at least until 1943
,when German armor ahs a definite edge over the Soviet arms.Your senario then makes sense

One problem - without the ultimate test lab that was the Russian front the Germans wouldn't see any need to upgrade their armor designs. If you look at the historical progression of British tank design in NA you'll see very little in what can be considered a radical improvement. The Crusader may have been a better tank than the earlier A9, but not by much, and certainly not so much that the 50mm-armed MK III couldn't handle it. Barring the introduction of the US Lees and Shermans, the Germans would be content with a fleet of Mk IIIs and a scattering of MK IV F2s.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
More important in terms of armor, the German Army would have recognized the need for motorised transport & 88 mm anti tank mobile weapons.
In 1942 the Sherman was the 'state of the art', & would have been recognised & responded to. Teh New commonwealth 17 lb gun was enough of an upgrade to force change.
The original Heer plan called for 1945 - full synthetic fuel production, six wheel drive MAN trucks,integrated modular rail. the high volecity 88 mm in quantities- mounted and towed

Horses as recreational & parade
Accessories!

Rail.
They could sell via sea to a neutral Japan.
Granted, it isn't that bad since the Berlin-Baghdad railway was finished in 1940, but that still means there is no railway to oilfields.

That railway had an eight car marine link across Lake Van- if & when weather allowed.
Still does. a non starter,I'm afraid....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tcdd_network.png

There is a'border railroad' - light rail, bad grades, dips into Syria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_Railway

No need to cross Turkey.
Oil could be sent to Hafia via rail and put on ships.

[waldzee]

At the start of 1941 on General Von Thoma's advice Hitler dispatches a 4 Division Panzer offensive force (the most the logistics of Libya can take Von Thoma inspection revealed) to Libya.
He was intending to send 1 Division as a blocking force and concentrate on the Soviet Union however it was decided that that finishing off the English was to good an opportunity to miss.
Barbarossa is instead postponed for a year.
I will do my following prediction of events in stages as im short of time right now.
The first I would predict the fall of all of Egypt by June/July 1941 which I will get to in more detail when I get back.

Any thoughts so far?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Try prosponing Barbarossa indefinitely- or at least until 1943
,when German armor ahs a definite edge over the Soviet arms.Your senario then makes sense

One problem - without the ultimate test lab that was the Russian front the Germans wouldn't see any need to upgrade their armor designs. If you look at the historical progression of British tank design in NA you'll see very little in what can be considered a radical improvement. The Crusader may have been a better tank than the earlier A9, but not by much, and certainly not so much that the 50mm-armed MK III couldn't handle it. Barring the introduction of the US Lees and Shermans, the Germans would be content with a fleet of Mk IIIs and a scattering of MK IV F2s.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
More important in terms of armor, the German Army would have recognized the need for motorised transport & 88 mm anti tank mobile weapons.
In 1942 the Sherman was the 'state of the art', & would have been recognised & responded to. Teh New commonwealth 17 lb gun was enough of an upgrade to force change.
The original Heer plan called for 1945 - full synthetic fuel production, six wheel drive MAN trucks,integrated modular rail. the high volecity 88 mm in quantities- mounted and towed

Horses as recreational & parade
Accessories!

Rail.
They could sell via sea to a neutral Japan.
Granted, it isn't that bad since the Berlin-Baghdad railway was finished in 1940, but that still means there is no railway to oilfields.

That railway had an eight car marine link across Lake Van- if & when weather allowed.
Still does. a non starter,I'm afraid....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tcdd_network.png

There is a'border railroad' - light rail, bad grades, dips into Syria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_Railway

No need to cross Turkey.
Oil could be sent to Hafia via rail and put on ships.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check you r rail maps

[Buchan]

No need to cross Turkey.
Oil could be sent to Hafia via rail and put on ships.[/quote]
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check you r rail maps[/quote]

To be more clear no reason to cross Turkey from north to south but go south west into Syria.

[waldzee]

No need to cross Turkey.
Oil could be sent to Hafia via rail and put on ships.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check you r rail maps[/quote]

To be more clear no reason to cross Turkey from north to south but go south west into Syria.[/quote]
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I gather you are not a rail road engineer

2-3 year heavy rebuilding project .Now, you do the research tell us why

[Buchan]

No need to cross Turkey.
Oil could be sent to Hafia via rail and put on ships.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check you r rail maps

To be more clear no reason to cross Turkey from north to south but go south west into Syria.[/quote]
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I gather you are not a rail road engineer

2-3 year heavy rebuilding project .Now, you do the research tell us why [/quote]

The point was that it could move some oil.
Of course the best method would be via the sea at Basra or Abadan once captured. (to Japan that is.)

[waldzee]

No need to cross Turkey.
Oil could be sent to Hafia via rail and put on ships.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check you r rail maps

To be more clear no reason to cross Turkey from north to south but go south west into Syria.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I gather you are not a rail road engineer

2-3 year heavy rebuilding project .Now, you do the research tell us why [/quote]

The point was that it could move some oil.


briefly:
In 1903, track laying began between Haifa and Daraa. The biggest challenge was the construction east of Samakh (Samakh–Daraa). The length of this section was 73 km and the height difference was 529 m. Eight tunnels were dug for the section, totalling a length of 1,100 m and 329 bridges and aqueducts
heavy gradients. worn out 50 LB track/ Light long box bridges / narrow guage. Trestle climbs across the Yarmuk. tight multiple curves. Even if the British surrendered, hard core, tough Zionists hiding , bombing every bridge & tunnel... with German trains inside- or permently 'taking on water.'.
Railroads survive where the local population is not hostile to them, or where they can be carefully guarded.

However, your basic premise is still sound. Laying track in Lybia , linking to Tunisia in 1939 - 40 would have made a huge difference... I don't want to be toohard on your core idea,just somem of the 'outliers'..

[Buchan]

No need to cross Turkey.
Oil could be sent to Hafia via rail and put on ships.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check you r rail maps

To be more clear no reason to cross Turkey from north to south but go south west into Syria.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I gather you are not a rail road engineer

2-3 year heavy rebuilding project .Now, you do the research tell us why

The point was that it could move some oil.


briefly:
In 1903, track laying began between Haifa and Daraa. The biggest challenge was the construction east of Samakh (Samakh–Daraa). The length of this section was 73 km and the height difference was 529 m. Eight tunnels were dug for the section, totalling a length of 1,100 m and 329 bridges and aqueducts
heavy gradients. worn out 50 LB track/ Light long box bridges / narrow guage. Trestle climbs across the Yarmuk. tight multiple curves. Even if the British surrendered, hard core, tough Zionists hiding , bombing every bridge & tunnel... with German trains inside- or permently 'taking on water.'.
Railroads survive where the local population is not hostile to them, or where they can be carefully guarded.

However, your basic premise is still sound. Laying track in Lybia , linking to Tunisia in 1939 - 40 would have made a huge difference... I don't want to be toohard on your core idea,just somem of the 'outliers'..[/quote]

I doubt unfortunitely that the Jewish population would last very long under Nazi control.

[waldzee]

No need to cross Turkey.
Oil could be sent to Hafia via rail and put on ships.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check you r rail maps

To be more clear no reason to cross Turkey from north to south but go south west into Syria.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I gather you are not a rail road engineer

2-3 year heavy rebuilding project .Now, you do the research tell us why

The point was that it could move some oil.


briefly:

I doubt unfortunitely that the Jewish population would last very long under Nazi control.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Palmach would have been waiting & ready. & your beloved light rail narrow guage line would have been
wrecked beyond belief.
Adios..............

[Buchan]

The Palmach would have been waiting & ready. & your beloved light rail narrow guage line would have been
wrecked beyond belief.
Adios..............[/quote]

The Nazis no doubt would have used the Arabs against the Jewish population hence why they got the Grand Mufti on board.

[waldzee]

The Palmach would have been waiting & ready. & your beloved light rail narrow guage line would have been
wrecked beyond belief.
Adios..............

The Nazis no doubt would have used the Arabs against the Jewish population hence why they got the Grand Mufti on board.[/quote]
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You should stick to yourown topic Why send oil 500 miles south to Haifa over light break of guage when you are 20 miles from Turkis
hts ports? http://www.henrich-center.de/historie/baue.html

[Buchan]

The Palmach would have been waiting & ready. & your beloved light rail narrow guage line would have been
wrecked beyond belief.
Adios..............

The Nazis no doubt would have used the Arabs against the Jewish population hence why they got the Grand Mufti on board.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You should stick to yourown topic Why send oil 500 miles south to Haifa over light break of guage when you are 20 miles from Turkis
hts ports? http://www.henrich-center.de/historie/baue.html[/quote]

Yes to load by ship.
What ever way is easiest. Palestine, Syria or Turkey.

[Buchan]

But as I said what is really needed is sea route from Basra.
To get it to a neutral Japan from there is not a problem but to get it back to Europe is.
This would require offensives into Sudan, Eritrea, Somalia, Aden and Oman by the Germans and Italians.
This would take into 1943.
Would the USSR sit quiet in 1942? would the USA keep out of the war even if Japanese oil needs are satisfied from Basra?

[Baltasar]

You realize that your "what if" is close to invite alien space bats intervening on the Axis side?

[Buchan]

You realize that your "what if" is close to invite alien space bats intervening on the Axis side?

In what way?

[waldzee]

You realize that your "what if" is close to invite alien space bats intervening on the Axis side?

Plus African War Brides....Gets lonely way out there...