4 Panzer Division Africa Korps and Postponed Barbarossa

[Buchan]

Anything specific you think can not be done?

[waldzee]

At the start of 1941 on General Von Thoma's advice Hitler dispatches a 4 Division Panzer offensive force (the most the logistics of Libya can take Von Thoma inspection revealed) to Libya.
He was intending to send 1 Division as a blocking force and concentrate on the Soviet Union however it was decided that that finishing off the English was to good an opportunity to miss.
Barbarossa is instead postponed for a year.
I will do my following prediction of events in stages as im short of time right now.
The first I would predict the fall of all of Egypt by June/July 1941 which I will get to in more detail when I get back.

Any thoughts so far?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Many.
How do you deal with two large anti tank ditches called the Nile & the suez Canal? for starters

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/4 ... 1182458251 for next

[Buchan]

At the start of 1941 on General Von Thoma's advice Hitler dispatches a 4 Division Panzer offensive force (the most the logistics of Libya can take Von Thoma inspection revealed) to Libya.
He was intending to send 1 Division as a blocking force and concentrate on the Soviet Union however it was decided that that finishing off the English was to good an opportunity to miss.
Barbarossa is instead postponed for a year.
I will do my following prediction of events in stages as im short of time right now.
The first I would predict the fall of all of Egypt by June/July 1941 which I will get to in more detail when I get back.

Any thoughts so far?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Many.
How do you deal with two large anti tank ditches called the Nile & the suez Canal? for starters

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/4 ... 1182458251 for next

Build a bridge?

[waldzee]

At the start of 1941 on General Von Thoma's advice Hitler dispatches a 4 Division Panzer offensive force (the most the logistics of Libya can take Von Thoma inspection revealed) to Libya.
He was intending to send 1 Division as a blocking force and concentrate on the Soviet Union however it was decided that that finishing off the English was to good an opportunity to miss.
Barbarossa is instead postponed for a year.
I will do my following prediction of events in stages as im short of time right now.
The first I would predict the fall of all of Egypt by June/July 1941 which I will get to in more detail when I get back.

Any thoughts so far?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Many.
How do you deal with two large anti tank ditches called the Nile, the Delta & then the suez Canal? for starters

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/4 ... 1182458251 for next

Build a bridge?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The big mystery is why you even bother to start threads. ...

[Buchan]

At the start of 1941 on General Von Thoma's advice Hitler dispatches a 4 Division Panzer offensive force (the most the logistics of Libya can take Von Thoma inspection revealed) to Libya.
He was intending to send 1 Division as a blocking force and concentrate on the Soviet Union however it was decided that that finishing off the English was to good an opportunity to miss.
Barbarossa is instead postponed for a year.
I will do my following prediction of events in stages as im short of time right now.
The first I would predict the fall of all of Egypt by June/July 1941 which I will get to in more detail when I get back.

Any thoughts so far?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Many.
How do you deal with two large anti tank ditches called the Nile, the Delta & then the suez Canal? for starters

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/4 ... 1182458251 for next

Build a bridge?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The big mystery is why you even bother to start threads. ...

Perhaps you think the Germans never built a bridge in the war?

[Buchan]

Lets have a look at a time line here then.

The Afrika Korps pushes to Solum and paused on the 14th of April 1941 to allow supplies to catch up.
At the end of April Tobruk is assaulted and taken.
On June 1st the Germans launch a new offensive from Solum.
The British fall back to El Alamein and just manage to hold the line.
At the end of July the Germans launch a new offensive which breaks the British at El Alamein.
Alexandria is taken and British troops are evacuated to Palestine.

In August Hitler puts great pressure on Turkey to enter the war with a generous package on offer to them that includes Cypress, Lebanon and Syria.
Hitler also visits General Franco and again asks him to enter the war this time with a far greater threat of force than he did in October 1940.
Both Turkey and Spain agree to enter the war.

2 Panzer Divisions and dispatched to Turkey and other forces to Spain.
The Canary Islands are quickly re-enforced with German aircraft and paratroopers.

As soon as German troops begin to arrive London starts preparing to take the Canary Islands.

At start of September Spain declares war on the British Empire and Gibraltar is taken.
The British quickly attack the Canary Islands and manage to take them but with very heavy naval loses due to Axis airpower.
The British also take Madeira which results in German troops moving into Portugal and forcing Salazar to declare war on Britain.

October -
The British invade Mozambique and Angola and also capture the Azores.
An Axis attack on Palestine and Syria begins from Turkey and Egypt.
By the end of the month the British have withdrew to Iraq.
Malta and Cyprus are occupied with only token ease as nearly all British forces have left.

November -
A combined Axis fleet with heavy air support from Morocco re-takes the Canary Islands but the Axis forces suffer terrible loses.
Doubts are raised over German intelligence security.

December -
Japan attacks Pearl Harbour.

January 1942 -
Axis forces invade Iraq.
The British withdraw to Oman, India, Aden and East Africa.
The British also send some forces to the Far East.
The Germans also test their code security which reveals their codes have been broken.
The Germans change their codes.
Persia declares for the Axis.

February 1942 -
German and Italian troops enter Persia and begin training the Persian army.

[phylo_roadking]

Don't give up your day job :roll:

[Baltasar]

You realize that your "what if" is close to invite alien space bats intervening on the Axis side?

In what way?

Better ask in which way not. You're assuming so much going in favor of the Axis while nothing at all seems to change on the Allied side, ie a much heavier investment in the Med once Britain realizes that the Axis are most active there. You're also assuming that four full tank divisions will be able to be supplied and recieve spare parts and reinforcements at the end of a very long supply line. Furthermore, you're assuming that the Oil in the middle east would be there, waiting for the Axis, ready to be beamed over to Europe etc etc etc...

There's so many... lets say unrealistic ideas in here, it's more like a fantasy nazi story than a what if which would be worth that name.

[berlichingen]

At the start of 1941 on General Von Thoma's advice Hitler dispatches a 4 Division Panzer offensive force (the most the logistics of Libya can take Von Thoma inspection revealed) to Libya.
He was intending to send 1 Division as a blocking force and concentrate on the Soviet Union however it was decided that that finishing off the English was to good an opportunity to miss.
Barbarossa is instead postponed for a year.
I will do my following prediction of events in stages as im short of time right now.
The first I would predict the fall of all of Egypt by June/July 1941 which I will get to in more detail when I get back.

Any thoughts so far?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Many.
How do you deal with two large anti tank ditches called the Nile & the suez Canal? for starters

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/4 ... 1182458251 for next

Strange assertion as all obstacles can be crossed.

[berlichingen]

You realize that your "what if" is close to invite alien space bats intervening on the Axis side?

In what way?

Better ask in which way not. You're assuming so much going in favor of the Axis while nothing at all seems to change on the Allied side, ie a much heavier investment in the Med once Britain realizes that the Axis are most active there. You're also assuming that four full tank divisions will be able to be supplied and recieve spare parts and reinforcements at the end of a very long supply line. Furthermore, you're assuming that the Oil in the middle east would be there, waiting for the Axis, ready to be beamed over to Europe etc etc etc...

There's so many... lets say unrealistic ideas in here, it's more like a fantasy nazi story than a what if which would be worth that name.

Can be applied on many what ifs. You seem more to have a problem with certain what ifs.

[berlichingen]

But that would have allowed Stalin to continue sorting his forces out and led to a Soviet invasion of Germany. I suppose you wouldn't mind that because it would allow Italy to buy the T34 from the Soviets for use against the British in North Africa.

That is a very wild suppostion.

[waldzee]

At the start of 1941 on General Von Thoma's advice Hitler dispatches a 4 Division Panzer offensive force (the most the logistics of Libya can take Von Thoma inspection revealed) to Libya.
He was intending to send 1 Division as a blocking force and concentrate on the Soviet Union however it was decided that that finishing off the English was to good an opportunity to miss.
Barbarossa is instead postponed for a year.
I will do my following prediction of events in stages as im short of time right now.
The first I would predict the fall of all of Egypt by June/July 1941 which I will get to in more detail when I get back.

Any thoughts so far?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Many.
How do you deal with two large anti tank ditches called the Nile & the suez Canal? for starters

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/4 ... 1182458251 for next

Strange assertion as all obstacles can be crossed.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
the query is do you bypass with your 'sea superiority' or do you force a bridgehead at , say, Port Said?
When Buchan( Who's syntax seems, to uhhh, Mirror you)
Says:
The anti-shipping activity could only do so much against overwhelming Axis air power with convoy escorts,

The query is logical, since you are planning to also cross, or go around the Bosporus, while protecting eventual massive oil convoys out, immediate construction convoys in...

I would suggest reading GLEN 239's well researched topics

[Baltasar]

You realize that your "what if" is close to invite alien space bats intervening on the Axis side?

In what way?

Better ask in which way not. You're assuming so much going in favor of the Axis while nothing at all seems to change on the Allied side, ie a much heavier investment in the Med once Britain realizes that the Axis are most active there. You're also assuming that four full tank divisions will be able to be supplied and recieve spare parts and reinforcements at the end of a very long supply line. Furthermore, you're assuming that the Oil in the middle east would be there, waiting for the Axis, ready to be beamed over to Europe etc etc etc...

There's so many... lets say unrealistic ideas in here, it's more like a fantasy nazi story than a what if which would be worth that name.

Can be applied on many what ifs. You seem more to have a problem with certain what ifs.

Just with those which are very far off the other side of reality.

[Buchan]

You realize that your "what if" is close to invite alien space bats intervening on the Axis side?

In what way?

Better ask in which way not. You're assuming so much going in favor of the Axis while nothing at all seems to change on the Allied side, ie a much heavier investment in the Med once Britain realizes that the Axis are most active there. You're also assuming that four full tank divisions will be able to be supplied and recieve spare parts and reinforcements at the end of a very long supply line. Furthermore, you're assuming that the Oil in the middle east would be there, waiting for the Axis, ready to be beamed over to Europe etc etc etc...

There's so many... lets say unrealistic ideas in here, it's more like a fantasy nazi story than a what if which would be worth that name.

Can be applied on many what ifs. You seem more to have a problem with certain what ifs.

It will take the Germans some time to get oil production going on the middle east again and without a sea route it wont be that much use to them.
However as they are not yet at war with the USSR they will be getting oil from them.

[LWD]

It could go via sea from Abadan to Japan.

... No need to cross Turkey.
Oil could be sent to Hafia via rail and put on ships.

What ships? and when?
Japan doesn't have that many tankers and if the oil doesn't start flowing until 43 it's too late probably too late by mid 42. Not clear that Japan will be neutral past that point for one thing. Japan doesn't have much to pay for it either. Then there's getting to the Turkish ports. Very good chance the Med is closed at that point.