P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

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Messer-Dornier

Post by BDV » 18 Sep 2012 21:00

I'm positive Messer's design crew could have contributed some expertise, likely less so than the Dornier guys would have contributed in the opposite direction, but still, with the no-Do217 work savings and with reasonable cooperation within the consortium, both designs could be handed to production wonks cca December 1942.

Bonus, if the 3rdReich gets a very good fighter-bomber based on the established DB601 for the May 1943 - August 1944 timeframe (even if the plane needs upengineing later on in '44),
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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

Post by phylo_roadking » 18 Sep 2012 21:28

both designs could be handed to production wonks cca December 1942
I think you need to go back and look again at what I posted last night; as of the POD in late 1940....the concept tester hadn't even flown! There was years of work to do on Dornier's idea before the 335 could have been handed off to series production; the Go 9 had to fly and data be gathered, then the 335 designed, the prototypes handbuilt and thoroughly tested THEN thoroughly flight tested...then the A-0 series pre-production aircraft built and tested...

I've said this before in many threads now; you need to look at the first-pencil-on-paper to start of series production times for aircraft (and tanks :P) on BOTH sides during the war. 2-3 years was not uncommon...and that was for known, proven concepts. Add in wholly new technology and concepts...

Late 1943 is pushing it for the 335 from a 1940 start...and even then there's a couple of months of working up tactics with a trials Kommando to go, along the lines of Ekdo 262.
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Messer-Dornier

Post by BDV » 19 Sep 2012 13:32

Well, we were debating about what feasible changes to historical timeline could be made tobring forth the D335 earlier.

Absolutely disagree that it could not be built earlier. With the joint operation of Messerschmidt-Dornier, with this remaining an official project, and with the cancellation of Do217, all steps, the drawing, the wind tunel experiments, the prototype building and testing, the finalization of the design for the first production run, and the first production run itself can be quicker. This is not Do335 in Summer '41, not even in summer '42, it is Do335 in summer '43. With all the ATL advantages the ATL Do335 would have, development time from the status already reached in 1940 is only assumed to be cut by 1/3.

I'm sorry to disagree with you, but this is feasible.

P.S. The P95 project has the promise of keeping obsolescent engines in use longer ... also the 601 was more efficient and lighter (per hp) compared to the 603.

Also, with a promising schnellbomber in production, the impetus to counterproductively attempt the same with the Schwalbe would be much less.
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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

Post by phylo_roadking » 20 Sep 2012 16:03

all steps, the drawing, the wind tunel experiments, the prototype building and testing, the finalization of the design for the first production run, and the first production run itself can be quicker.
How? How can the tesing ATL be any faster than the testing that went on anyway between late 1940 and early 1942? As we've seen it didn't stop; the Go 9 would have had to undergo an full test regime of its own to gather data.

HOW would prototype building actually "go faster"? I don't see any sign that it went particularly slow; in fact, given the "nine-month" episode it went uncharacteristicially fast! 8O You mean start earlier...but see above.

And why assume prototype testing would go any faster? If anything with a new concept aircraft its likely to go slower and be far more rigorous!

Ditto for this -
finalization of the design for the first production run, and the first production run itself can be quicker.
it can't actually be "quicker" Do you think the Germans dawdled??? Details for the A-0 series can only be finalized when prototype testing is completed, or at least far enough along that there are no more serious or major changes to be made to the specification of the A-0 series.

Unless there OTL was some serious delay in the drawing board-to-first A-0 aircraft in the air that we're not presently aware of for the 335 - the progress from May 1942 to the production of the A-0 series of the Do 335 seems to have been exemplary. As we're not seeing any major delays, there's not much that I can see that can actually be shaved off that schedule.

The ONLY way to have that process finish earlier is to have it START earlier - and given that as I mentioned before that this was a whole new concept and had to depend on the full testing of the Go 9 I don't see much time available in THAT part of the process to shave off either...
Initially towed aloft, flight tests began in June 1941, but later flights operated under its own power. The design validated Dornier's ideas, and he went ahead with his original plan to build a high-performance aircraft with propellers at the front and rear, producing the Dornier Do 335. The eventual fate of the Gö 9 is not known.
First flight in the middle of 1941...I've seen several comments that "many" test flights were flown...and yet by May 1942 Claude Dornier had a detailed spec for the P.231 to give the RLM? :wink: Looks like there was a LOT of work crammed into those months as it was! You might be able to shave weeks off that June 1941 to May 1942 interval...but months???

(P.S. I could give you a classic example from the history of Harley-Davidson that illustrates the perils of going to full production before full testing is completed! :lol: )
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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

Post by BDV » 20 Sep 2012 17:18

phylo_roadking wrote:How? How can the tesing ATL be any faster than the testing that went on anyway between late 1940 and early 1942? As we've seen it didn't stop; the Go 9 would have had to undergo an full test regime of its own to gather data.
Because you have more engineers, with more relevant expertise working on the project. Me209 expertise would especially be useful to the Do335"M" development. Therefore the feedback loops will be tighter, with fewer wild-goose chases.

HOW would prototype building actually "go faster"? I don't see any sign that it went particularly slow; in fact, given the "nine-month" episode it went uncharacteristicially fast! 8O You mean start earlier...but see above.
Because there would be more high precision experienced aviation workers building the prototypes.

And why assume prototype testing would go any faster? If anything with a new concept aircraft its likely to go slower and be far more rigorous!
So with more resources it would be slower! Really?

Do you think the Germans dawdled???
There were only finite very finite resources that Dornier could assign to the project. Especially during the time it was not an official project. Dornier guys might have applied themselves to the task conscientiously, BUT it's a given that they made mistakes Messer's engineers could/would have prevented. And viceversa for Messer's Me210 tribulations, where Dornier engineers could have brought invaluable insights.

The ONLY way to have that process finish earlier is to have it START earlier - and given that as I mentioned before that this was a whole new concept and had to depend on the full testing of the Go 9 I don't see much time available in THAT part of the process to shave off either...
Halving of this time here, shave a third of the time there, soon the work is finished in 36 months instead of 48. 30 if everything works perfectly. 24 months probably is out of question. 12 is ASB teritorry. But 36 instead of 48, with additional veteran high speed fighter expertise on board is doable.

The only way this is not working is if the two parties hate each other's guts, and proceed to actively sabotage each other - not unheard of in German aviation industry manyheaded hydra. That could consume time and delay the project.
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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

Post by phylo_roadking » 20 Sep 2012 17:50

Because you have more engineers, with more relevant expertise working on the project. Me209 expertise would especially be useful to the Do335"M" development.
Given when the 209 was cancelled...I have a feeling they'd have been busy elsewhere by late 1940...
Therefore the feedback loops will be tighter, with fewer wild-goose chases
How do we know there were that many???
Because there would be more high precision experienced aviation workers building the prototypes.
And not busy repairing/replacing the ravages of the recent Battle of Britain? There's only SO many hands can work on handcrafting an aircraft from scratch.
And why assume prototype testing would go any faster? If anything with a new concept aircraft its likely to go slower and be far more rigorous!
So with more resources it would be slower! Really?
What "more resources"??? You've only got a certain number of prototype aircraft and capable test pilots TO test! 8O
Do you think the Germans dawdled???
There were only finite very finite resources that Dornier could assign to the project. Especially during the time it was not an official project.
Dornier has whatever manpower resources Claude Dornier decides to give the project, dependent only on his fulfilling RLM/Herrswaffenampt contracts to time. These were private companies, remember - extra material resources were under government control, but not what was within a given company's staff and storerooms.
Dornier guys might have applied themselves to the task conscientiously, BUT it's a given that they made mistakes Messer's engineers could/would have prevented.
Really? Messerschmitt' never made any mistakes or turned out turkeys? Me 210 (cough, cough....)
Halving of this time here, shave a third of the time there, soon the work is finished in 36 months instead of 48. 30 if everything works perfectly. 24 months probably is out of question. 12 is ASB teritorry. But 36 instead of 48, with additional veteran high speed fighter expertise on board is doable.
You can't halve flight testing and ground testing and end up with successful aircraft 8O Look at the problems you end up with on new concept aircraft even WITH a long testing period - Me 262 nosewheel issues comes to mind...and He 162 delaminating control services, and...
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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

Post by BDV » 20 Sep 2012 18:54

phylo_roadking wrote:Given when the 209 was cancelled...I have a feeling they'd have been busy elsewhere by late 1940...
Or maybe Willy sees this as a Godsend opportunity to get ahead in the wrangle with Kurt Tank and applies himself to the task with all his might (and that of his development team).

Therefore the feedback loops will be tighter, with fewer wild-goose chases

How do we know there were that many???
Because nobody is born learned/educated. This was the first high speed inline plane of Dornier, no? Many or few, additional expertise means there are fewer.

There's only SO many hands can work on handcrafting an aircraft from scratch.
So it's even more important that Dornier and Messerschmidt build teams join forces, and superfluous designs (e.g. Do217) are set aside.


What "more resources"??? You've only got a certain number of prototype aircraft and capable test pilots TO test!
So it's important that prototypes incorporate the as much as possible from the the existing fighter design knowledge from the very beginning.

In the mind of the apprentice there are many options. In the mind of the master there are few.



Dornier has whatever manpower resources Claude Dornier decides to give the project, dependent only on his fulfilling RLM/Herrswaffenampt contracts to time. These were private companies, remember - extra material resources were under government control, but not what was within a given company's staff and storerooms.
So more workers could be assigned as money would not have to come from Claude's pockets. When Willy puts his own 2 cents and his gang into the project, look at it fly. 30 months, I tell you!

Really? Messerschmitt' never made any mistakes or turned out turkeys? Me 210 (cough, cough....)
Exactly. And that's why Willy's outfit would too have benefited of help from a crew with more experience developing and building heavier, slower two engine designs. Which cross benefit I have already pointed to multiple time on this thread.


One figher bomber operation to rule them all!

You can't halve flight testing and ground testing and end up with successful aircraft 8O Look at the problems you end up with on new concept aircraft even WITH a long testing period - Me 262 nosewheel issues comes to mind...and He 162 delaminating control services, and...
Start with more expertise, more resources, get the job done quicker. That's my thinking and I'm sticking to it.
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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

Post by phylo_roadking » 20 Sep 2012 19:55

Or maybe Willy sees this as a Godsend opportunity to get ahead in the wrangle with Kurt Tank and applies himself to the task with all his might (and that of his development team).
But can't....because Messerschmitt historically HAS enough on his design plate already as of late 1940 ;)
This was the first high speed inline plane of Dornier, no? Many or few, additional expertise means there are fewer.
Was it, really? What about the nice, fast, Do17? And Claude Dornier has penty of experience in something that Messerschmitt doesn't - twin engines in single nacelles/fuselages ;)
There's only SO many hands can work on handcrafting an aircraft from scratch.
So it's even more important that Dornier and Messerschmidt build teams join forces
No, youv'e got it the wrong way round - I mean there's just so many people can physcially work on a single "toolroom special", handcrafted aircraft at any goiven point in time. There's a limit to it - not that you can throw hundreds of people at it!
What "more resources"??? You've only got a certain number of prototype aircraft and capable test pilots TO test!

So it's important that prototypes incorporate the as much as possible from the the existing fighter design knowledge from the very beginning
What has your reply got to do with my point about the time it takes to rigorously test the few prototypes?

Bear in mind that this IS a new concept aircraft - not that many existing fighter design elements can come over. Either in manufacture or...

Here's a question - tell me exactly what a test pilot does....?
So more workers could be assigned as money would not have to come from Claude's pockets.
My point is he DID fund it historically from his own pockets for two years. Money isn't necessarily going to make what was done in those two years 1940-1942 go any faster - the Go 9 still has to be designed, it's problems overcome, its ground and flight testing completed.
start with more expertise, more resources, get the job done quicker. That's my thinking and I'm sticking to it.
That's not how you "do" flight testing. Not only does the whole battery of tests have to be gone through - a predetermined number of flying hours has to be flown on given airframes to test for long-duration stresses etc.
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The Cake Bakes Quicker with Helping Hands

Post by BDV » 21 Sep 2012 01:35

phylo_roadking wrote:Or maybe Willy sees this as a Godsend opportunity to get ahead in the wrangle with Kurt Tank and applies himself to the task with all his might (and that of his development team).

But can't....because Messerschmitt historically HAS enough on his design plate already as of late 1940 ;)
A.
This was the first high speed inline plane of Dornier, no? Many or few, additional expertise means there are fewer.

Was it, really? What about the nice, fast, Do17? And Claude Dornier has penty of experience in something that Messerschmitt doesn't - twin engines in single nacelles/fuselages ;)
B.

Exactly, A.+B. is exactly why Messer-Dornier is a marriage made in Valhalla and the most reasonable way to get the Do335 (and the troubled 410) into battle earlier.

No, youv'e got it the wrong way round - I mean there's just so many people can physically work on a single "toolroom special", handcrafted aircraft at any goiven point in time. There's a limit to it - not that you can throw hundreds of people at it!
Oh!

But still the best bet is if each team brings forth their expertise in the project - Messer guys focus on the wings and the outside, Dornier guys the inner workings of the push pull arrangement. And also, with the Do217 in the works, Claude's top guys were working on the 217, rather than the 335.

That's not how you "do" flight testing. Not only does the whole battery of tests have to be gone through - a predetermined number of flying hours has to be flown on given airframes to test for long-duration stresses etc.
So the closer one starts from the goal, the fewer iterations in the project, and more adequate/quicker the adjustments (where Me209 experience would come into play big time), the shorter that duration. And vice versa for Me210, once Dornier people bring in their expertise. The need for adjustments and for completion of all phases plan, mock-up/windtunnel and life size testing in sequence means that shortening is computed in trimesters, not years.

P.S.
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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

Post by phylo_roadking » 21 Sep 2012 11:25

But still the best bet is if each team brings forth their expertise in the project - Messer guys focus on the wings and the outside, Dornier guys the inner workings of the push pull arrangement
This CAN produce more problems than its worth - see the issues with joining sections of uboats made by different subcontractors in the last year of the war, for instance...
And also, with the Do217 in the works, Claude's top guys were working on the 217, rather than the 335.
Thhat's not really how aircraft designing works either...designing an aircraft can take a group of designers often in single figures - and dozens of draughtsmen :wink:
Exactly, A.+B.
Er...no; look again...
Messerschmitt historically HAS enough on his design plate already as of late 1940
The 210/4210 wasn't Messerschmitt's ONLY project! 8O The designers/draughtmen with the specific expertise you think can be brought to the project are busy on all the derivative marks of the 109 as well...
The need for adjustments and for completion of all phases plan, mock-up/windtunnel and life size testing in sequence means that shortening is computed in trimesters, not years
Please....tell me HOW you can actually shorten the given number of hours a given prototype airframe has to fly? Throwing resources and people at it doesn't shorten the amount of time a prototype has to spend in the air or the number of incremental tests that it has to be put through on the ground or in the air 8O
P.S.
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Er....no. What that little video doesn't tell you is the hundreds of hours of testing said aircraft has gone through before that. Flight testing is about accumulating hundreds of hours on a given aircraft, changing control input a fraction every time - a few mph incrementally, or a degree or two. Then going back and repeating all tests in a full range of possible weather conditions....AND going back and carrying out a full battery of tests after any modifications or amendments. They also have to accumulate enough normal flying hours on an airframe to ideally test for fatigue and stress factors...hundreds of hours of "drudge" flying 8O

It's a very lengthy process - and shortening it costs lives.

And it doesn't tell you that test pilots are not ten-a-penny; they are a VERY gifted breed - both (ideally) nerveless AND capable of expressing verbally every facet or change in an aircraft's behaviour in such a way that engineers and designers can understand WHAT they're saying and how it relates to their aircraft. So specialised a skill that the best pilots for the job had to be taken and then trained how to do the job! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_Tes ... %27_School

Oh - and the attrition rate was high... :( It's not a task which you CAN throw numbers at - the people doing it have to be capable of the job...and the pool both increases daily and shrinks daily; take a look at some of the Luftwaffe aircraft ocasionally discussed on AHF - ever notice how many of them involve early crashes of new concept aircraft??? Not only is each one a prototype destroyed or damaged...but it's also a test pilot killed or maimed.
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Not a test pilot

Post by BDV » 21 Sep 2012 13:51

Er...no.

The video illustrates one of the major reasons extensive pre-production testing is done. One does something perfectly routine, and the tail falls off.

As to why having more pilots, engineers and workers with experience in designing, building, and testing high speed aircraft, (including word record holders) on this particular project, I am still dumbfounded why you think it would not speed up the development process. And vice-versa for the 210/410.
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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

Post by phylo_roadking » 21 Sep 2012 16:53

Er....yes; there are plenty of veteran test pilot memoirs out there - only veterans GOT to live long enough to write their memoirs!

What do you think MADE the tail fail off? Do you think the assembly line left half the bolts off? Or was it because the aircraft was tested to fatigue point....it's about doing the perfectly routine often enough so that the tail falls off - THEN strengthen the tail and repeat! Because now of course you've to test if strengthening the tail has disturbed balance factors somewhere else, the trim factors, the stress factors, the weight distribution, the handling...or the alteration may not have worked! :P
As to why having more pilots, engineers and workers with experience in designing, building, and testing high speed aircraft, (including word record holders) on this particular project, I am still dumbfounded why you think it would not speed up the development process.
How many pilots do you think can fly a single-seater aircraft at any one time? How many hours of daylight are there in any given day? How many hours of good weather can you be assured of in any given day or week? When you're testing prototypes, there's no short cut to accumulating the hours; you don't half the hours by building twice the number of airframes! :lol: If you decide on, for instance, one hundred hours of testing on the prototype....you can't just build a hundred prototypes flown by a hundred test pilots...each for an hour :P
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Do335 Timeline

Post by BDV » 21 Sep 2012 21:46

There are tasks where running two prototypes won't shorten (how does the plane behave after 500 hours of flight), and there are where it would (testing avionics, flight, and handling characteristics at various speeds&altitudes). Two sets of Mark 1 light-sound-fume-vibration combo sensors will identify more problems quicker than one set. There are known unknows that an experienced build crew will go looking for instead of waiting for them to turn up by serendipity. There are unknown unknowns where there is no expert, and people learn/adjust to in real time - where two prototypes might not help - except that they provide more chances for the things that go wrong at random times to go wrong earlier.

Ad there is the risk that enthusiastic amateurs under pressure will go down the garden path, and stay there (Me210).

For the last time. Even with a huge departure from OTL in 1940, i.e. a (schrotflinte) marriage of Dornier and Messerschmidt, the Do335 timeline moves up by a piddly four trimesters.
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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

Post by Takao » 21 Sep 2012 23:07

I have been following this with some interest, but the discussion seems to have taken a turn for the worst.

Given that, in total, there were some 14-17 Do-335 prototypes(depending on source), not to mention the fact that it was not until the fifth Do-335 prototype that guns were mounted. Even with all these prototypes, by the end of the war, the Do-335 still had yet to enter series production.

While some of the delays were related to Allied bombing, I don't see that as materially affecting the production timeline. So, even if the design is accepted for production in late 1942, it is unlikely to enter combat before D-Day, and then only in small numbers. Further, with a "marriage" or Messerschmitt & Dornier, there is likely to be no Me-262, so in essence, your only trading one superior plane for another superior plane, as such there is no overall gain for German aircraft.

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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

Post by phylo_roadking » 22 Sep 2012 20:23

Given that, in total, there were some 14-17 Do-335 prototypes(depending on source), not to mention the fact that it was not until the fifth Do-335 prototype that guns were mounted. Even with all these prototypes, by the end of the war, the Do-335 still had yet to enter series production.
Indeed; it's perhaps worth looking at these aircraft to see what we notice...

First of all the V-1 aircraft (for anyone reading this thread who's not used to this, the Germans gave their actual prototypes a V-prefix...) General planform the same as all other subsequent 335 - except for rather awkward, full sizd disc-shaped covers over the main undercarriage, and the oil cooler inlet mounted just below and aft of the front engine cowling. It flew first at Oberpfaffenhofen in Bavaria, then the Luftwaffe Test Center at Rechlin.

V-2 and V-3 left the factory soon after; they incorporated a new oil cooler ring mounted in the front engine cowling. The new location of the oil cooler improved engine oil cooling efficiency...but the REAR engine on the V-2 overheated, caught fire and the V-2 crashed and was destroyed :( This was the only major accident during the 335's testing period.

V-4 however...was a different aircraft; it was the first TWO-SEATER 335 ;) It was a stronger and more simplified version of the 335 - but fitted with Jumo 222s. A dead end as these were never built in quantity.

V-5 WAS indeed the very first to carry armament! one engine-mounted 30 m.m. MK-103 cannon and two MG-151/15 fitted above the engine....so a whole battery of extra tests required ;)

Three more aircraft completed the Dornier test regime; V-6, V-7 and ....V-9! Junkers had V-7 - which was the test bed for the Jumo 213A and 213E engine installations ;) And it was lost in an air raid on Dessau!

(V-8 didn't contribute to Dornier's test regime at all - Daimler benz had it as the testbed for the Daimler-Benz DB-603 E and L engine installation)

V-9 was the final prototype only delivered to Rechlin in the summer of 1944 - and it was the final prototype "version", the version that was to be the model for the FOLLOWING A-0 series ;)

So - technically only EIGHT prototypes for all the flight testing...and two of THOSE were destroyed in various ways 8O So really only six aircraft were available to complete Dornier's factory and Rechlin's test regime.

There WAS however a V-10; this was the prototype model of the planned Do-335 A-6 night fighter series.

There was also a V-11 and V-12; these were prototypes for the Do-335 A10 trainer. V-12 was derived from the Do-335 A-0. Although given a prototype number, it was derived from the pre-production series. And V-13 was derived from the first series production A-1s.

V-13 prototype model for the Do-335 B-1 series....and V-14 served as prototype model for the Do-335 B-2 series.

But V-10 to V-14 were testing prototypes of task-specific marks - not "general flight testing" aircraft ;) They didn't contribute to the original testing...but the need to test THEM for THEIR specific derivative marks would of course prolong the OVERALL testing period before those particular marks go into production ;)
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