P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

#46

Post by BDV » 23 Sep 2012, 15:14

One of the things with a cooperative earlier atempt to a push-pull fighter would be if the venerable 601 could be used for the job. The 603 might have delivered 40% more power than the 601, but was also 56% heavier, and a bigger gas guzzler. The line for 603s (once they came out) was long. If this revolutionary concept can breath new life in the well established 601, both mass production and field deployment can be achieved much quicker.

But the herd-of-cats (divide et impera?) paradigm under which the german airindustry worked during the war seems to have been (at least partially) the result of HG Meier's handywork, and of his lack of leadership on development-con-production issues. HG seems to have been more interested in bullying his way to a huge steelworks emporium rather than supervising and directing the aviation industry.

The end result is that the needed top leadership to make my proposal work (cooperative integration of the top german fighter producer and of a creative plane developer's operation) is the most sorely absent ingredient, and the most difficult to make appear in this alternate universe proposal.
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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

#47

Post by phylo_roadking » 23 Sep 2012, 15:25

One of the things with a cooperative earlier atempt to a push-pull fighter would be if the venerable 601 could be used for the job. The 603 might have delivered 40% more power than the 601, but was also 56% heavier, and a bigger gas guzzler. The line for 603s (once they came out) was long. If this revolutionary concept can breath new life in the well established 601, both mass production and field deployment can be achieved much quicker.
Question is- why didn't they?

"The 603 might have delivered 40% more power than the 601, but was also 56% heavier"...

...and don't forget
Empty weight: 11,484 lb (5,210 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 19,500 lb (8,590 kg)
Bf 109 G
Loaded weight: 3,148 kg (6,940 lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 3,400 kg (7,495 lb)
FW 190 A
Empty weight: 3,200 kg (7,060 lb)
Loaded weight: 4,417 kg (9,735 lb)

The more than three times heavier 335 NEEDS the 603 to give it its superior performance. That 40% more power not only obviated the "56% -heavier" of the engine installation...but ALSO helped offset the huge weight disadvantage of the whole aircraft ;)

Without that significant performance advantage - the best replacement for a Bf109 or Fw190 "Jabo" is the NEXT mark of the 109 or 190! "Consumes" one less engine, cheaper in terms of manhours and raw materials to build, only uses up one pilot too, matured production lines and processes...
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Leichte 335 vs. Schwere 335

#48

Post by BDV » 23 Sep 2012, 15:52

Ein Minut, bitte!

Two 603 are more than thrice* the weight of a 601. Two 601, OTOH, are exactly twice the weight of a 601**. And the (relative) gas guzzling of 603 will exact its gallon of kerosene and cubic foot of space.

It seems to me that both Claude and Willy had to use extra power to address design limitations... that's why it might be a swell ideea that the premier fuselage mounted german fighter developer and producer help with the 335, and vice versa, the creative engine mounted fast bomber half-french designer*** and his crew to pitch in the 210/410 development.

__________________________________________________________________
*(three shall be the number you shall count and the number of the counting shall be three)

**(no more, no less!)

***Claude had run with the Zeppelin crew, and this may too have counted as a strike against him in the eyes of HG Meier.
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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

#49

Post by phylo_roadking » 23 Sep 2012, 16:10

It seems to me that both Claude and Willy had to use extra power to address design limitations... that's why it might be a swell ideea that the premier fuselage mounted german fighter developer and producer help with the 335
See my earlier point; as of 1940 the specific design team is already too busy working on successive marks of the 109 ;) The RLM wouldn't threaten that vital development.

Maybe my maths is bad here, but...
Two 603 are more than thrice* the weight of a 601. Two 601, OTOH, are exactly twice the weight of a 601**.
The 603 might have delivered 40% more power than the 601,
...doesn't that mean TWO 603s each provide 40% more power than TWO 601s each...? ;) So the whole plot has 80% more power? For what would have been only ~14-15% more weight...
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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

#50

Post by BDV » 23 Sep 2012, 18:29

phylo_roadking wrote:
...doesn't that mean TWO 603s each provide 40% more power than TWO 601s each...? ;) So the whole plot has 80% more power? For what would have been only ~14-15% more weight...
Ahem,

You may want to check your math ... two 603s deliver 1.4x power of two 601s...both sides of the ratio get augmented by the same factor (2) ... so the ratio (1.4) stays the same.

The arrangement is still 40% more powerfull and STILL 56% heavier ... that's why it might (MIGHT!) help get the Messer outfit involved with the 335, and the Dornier outfit involved with the 210/410... ensure there is the OPTIMAL design surrounding the power arrangement (ideally 601 based)...

...in the end the 603 might be necessary for either/both, but we won't be sure of that as both projects ended up being run by enthused amateurs rather than the best&brightest in the narrow issue at hand... with Claude and Willy (and Junkers/Heinkel) often involved in idiotic turf battles...
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D for ...

#51

Post by BDV » 23 Sep 2012, 19:00

:idea: :idea: :idea:

D for Dornier

... and also for Dewoitine.

How about gangpressing the Dewoitine development team into helping Claude develop his ideea. French would have been delighted to keep a high quality development team going ... as their eyes WERE on the future...

...and Claude had the cultural background to get this working. I say, beats having a bomber design team blindly groping their way towards bringing a revolutionary schnell zerstorer to life.
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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

#52

Post by phylo_roadking » 23 Sep 2012, 20:44

You may want to check your math ... two 603s deliver 1.4x power of two 601s...both sides of the ratio get augmented by the same factor (2) ... so the ratio (1.4) stays the same.

The arrangement is still 40% more powerfull and STILL 56% heavier ...
Exactly! I wanted you to look again at the math...

The engine installation is 56% heavier...but that only adds 14-15% of the dry weight of the aircraft! :wink: So using 603s...Dornier gets 1.4 times that of the 601s....to propel an aircraft weighing just 1.15 times what it would have with 601s.

See the net but automatic gain in power? :wink:

And don't forget - by 1940 the 601 was "old hat" :wink: Tthe 603 was already running and promised that extra power; what designer worth his salt would design a performance aircraft around an old engine...knowing there was still going to be x-number of years before his design entered service due to the prototype construction and flight testing requirements? 8O The 335's engine installation had to be top-of-the line in the future when it entered service - NOT when it was designed.
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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

#53

Post by BDV » 23 Sep 2012, 22:17

Well, there is the issue of what other components needed to be scaled up to accomodate the 603 (tensions in the airframe and the such). An 603-acepting airframe is surely overbuilt for a powerplant only 64% in weight.

In any case if frenchies are on board, one could even try it with the HispanoSuizas, of which french had a decent production capacity in place...
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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

#54

Post by phylo_roadking » 23 Sep 2012, 22:41

Well, there is the issue of what other components needed to be scaled up to accomodate the 603 (tensions in the airframe and the such). An 603-acepting airframe is surely overbuilt for a powerplant only 64% in weight.
Is it? Or is it overbuilt perhaps for the fact it also had to carry a 2,200lb bombload somehow? Both internally...AND externally, meaning wingspars strong enough to carry ordnance on hardpoints? ;)

Or weaponry? :wink: The weight of guns and brass is NOT inconsiderable....

Or pilot armour? Or the said pilot...?

A combat aircraft has to be strong enough to take high-G manouvers...while carrying all the above too! :P
In any case if frenchies are on board, one could even try it with the HispanoSuizas, of which french had a decent production capacity in place...
...but I wonder exactly how much R&D had actually gone on at Hispano from May 10th to the date that the original P.59 was cancelled late in 1940? Or after?...

Well, the H-S 12y in the M.S 402 or Dewoitine D.520 WAS lighter than the Merlin or DB 601 - but it was also less powerful too at only 922 bhp ;) Meanwhile, the 12Z was underdevelopment - but a a few issues as far as future use was concerned...

Looking at Wiki -
The engine was also designed to run only on 100 octane fuel (instead of 87, which was common at that point) which allowed the compression ratio to rise from the 12Y's 5.8:1 to the 12Z's 6.75:1. These changes raised the power from 1,000 to 1,300 hp (750 to 970 kW) at sea level.

Unfortunately the engine continued to use a single-stage, single-speed supercharger and therefore lacked the all-altitude performance of German and British designs. But tuning the supercharger for a different critical altitude improved high-altitude performance considerably, delivering 1,500 hp (1,120 kW) at 21,000 ft (6,400 m) as opposed to 930 hp (690 kW) at 2,950 ft (900 m) for the 12Y.

Small prototype runs started in 1939, and were fitted to the French Armée de l'Air's front-line fighter aircraft, the M.S.410 and D.520, creating the M.S.450 and D.524 respectively. Production of the main model, the 12Z-17, was just starting at the time of the armistice. Production was undertaken in Hispano-Suiza's Spanish factories, but these engines had many problems and were never used in any numbers.
That's three major issues - and even if the third of those, the reliability, WAS just down to the Spanish factories, there's still TWO major showstoppers in there!

What happened when H-S tried to deal with some of these issues later???
After the war a new version tuned to operate with 92 octane fuel, as opposed to the -17's 100/130, was built in limited numbers as the 12Z-89. Compression ratio was raised slightly to 7:1, but with the lower grade fuel the power dropped slightly to 1,280 hp (950 kW) at 2,600 rpm (1,479 hp (1,100 kW) maximum take-off). These engines apparently had the same sorts of reliability issues as the earlier -17's made in Spain, and the type never entered production.
Looks like the unreliability WASN'T just down to being produced in Spanish factories!

Also - with the 12y producing 922 bhp, and the 12Z producing 1,500....there's NO advantage over the 603A's 1558 bhp and the 603E's 1553 bhp - BOTH on lower-octane fuel IIRC, and without the 12Z's unreliability issues and lack of performance at altitude!

Hispano-Suiza' 1940 offerings aren't a viable answer. They could I suppose have started again from scratch and designed a new engine - but how many years was THAT going to take???
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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

#55

Post by BDV » 24 Sep 2012, 00:59

phylo_roadking wrote:Both internally...AND externally, meaning wingspars strong enough to carry ordnance on hardpoints? Or weaponry? The weight of guns and brass is NOT inconsiderable. Or pilot armour? Or the said pilot...?
Sure, all that factors in. But the extra 660 kg and the extra volume for the gas tanks and the extra kerosene also factor in. A "leichte" 335 would be definitely less kickass than the historical 335, by how much I cannot fathom though.


...but I wonder exactly how much R&D had actually gone on at Hispano from May 10th to the date that the original P.59 was cancelled late in 1940? Or after?...

Well, the H-S 12y in the M.S 402 or Dewoitine D.520 WAS lighter than the Merlin or DB 601 - but it was also less powerful too at only 922 bhp
Yes, I was thinking of D520's HS engine (the 12Y). If the concept is good, it should work with the 12Y, but if it's not, precious 601s/603s were not wasted.
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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

#56

Post by phylo_roadking » 24 Sep 2012, 01:17

Well...
and the extra volume for the gas tanks


...space doesn't weight anything, and -
and the extra kerosene also factor in
...this isn't there at the end of a flight ;) It gets burnt to make power. That's why I used "dry" weights.

As for the extra 660 kg - that's just the reverse of my point; take the weight of the whole plot back to the weight of a 335 with the 601....and you loose that 40% more power! So you have a lighter airframe yes....one that's 15% lighter - but one that's 40% down on power!

In other words - a "leichte" 335 as you put it flying on DB 601s would have a FAR worse power output vs. weight equation. It wouldn't get passed in late 1940 anyway!
If the concept is good, it should work with the 12Y,
Yes, you might get an aircraft that gets off the ground...but a combative fighter? Remember - it makes 922 hp vs. the 601A's 1,100 hp, or the 601E's 1,450!
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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

#57

Post by BDV » 24 Sep 2012, 15:36

phylo_roadking wrote:(the kerosene)
...this isn't there at the end of a flight ;) It gets burnt to make power. That's why I used "dry" weights.
But it's there at takeoff and during the approach of the target and during the actions over the target, and even when running away from target's defenders.

And extra volume (for gastanks and engine) means extra bulk, which means extra resistance (remember the foundational concept of push-pull!).


As for the extra 660 kg - that's just the reverse of my point; take the weight of the whole plot back to the weight of a 335 with the 601....and you loose that 40% more power! So you have a lighter airframe yes....one that's 15% lighter - but one that's 40% down on power!
The engine weight is only the beginning. Heavier engine means the fuselage needs to be sturdier - thus heavier, then the wings need to be sturdier - thus heavier. Soon your "15%" has balooned to what?


In other words - a "leichte" 335 as you put it flying on DB 601s would have a FAR worse power output vs. weight equation. It wouldn't get passed in late 1940 anyway!
I'm not convinced. Handwaving all the drawbacks of going to a heavier gas guzzling uber-engine with "but look at the 40% extra power!" ... :roll:

The 603 was less efficient per kg of engine and per kg of kerosene. Again, both Willy (with the 410) and Claude (with the 335) appear to have mitigated (covered, if you will) weaknesses in design by using a more powerful engine.

The "leichte" would most likely give up in bomb load, probably will be able to carry only 2x250 kg bombs in the bomb bay, and 2x100 kg bombs on the wings.
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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

#58

Post by phylo_roadking » 24 Sep 2012, 15:51

And extra volume (for gastanks and engine) means extra bulk, which means extra resistance (remember the foundational concept of push-pull!).
Not in this case, no; this wasn't a bomber in the sense of everything wrapped round a given specified bombload, in this case the space was found in (literally!) the design...and not enough :P given the size of the "weapons bay".

Everything else was acoomodated in the design first...

But you do bring up again thus the issue of the power vs. weight ratio...."And extra volume (for gastanks and engine) means extra bulk,"...in that ONLY the most power possible from the design would give it any advantage over single-engined Jabos for the role intended. It would never be approved with underpowered engines because that gives away its advantage ;)
But it's there at takeoff and during the approach of the target and during the actions over the target, and even when running away from target's defenders
Would it? ;) Remember, it's full war power that gulps fuel...
The engine weight is only the beginning. Heavier engine means the fuselage needs to be sturdier - thus heavier, then the wings need to be sturdier - thus heavier. Soon your "15%" has balooned to what?
That's not quite the way it works. A heavier engine means it's engine frame needs to be sturdier - the rest of the airframe ONLY needs to be as strong as required to aerobat the aircraft I.E. high-G manouvers. The wings need to be just strong enough that they can carry ordnance on hardpoints AND not get pulled off in high-G manouvers ;)
I'm not convinced. Handwaving all the drawbacks of going to a heavier gas guzzling uber-engine with "but look at the 40% extra power!" ...
But it's not handwaving, it's simple maths...

You take a higher-output engine...that doesn't use all it's extra output simply to move its OWN weight. Every extra horesepower ABOVE whats "needed" to do that...is a net performance gain. It's the reason for up-engining ANY period design! 8O
The "leichte" would most likely give up in bomb load, probably will be able to carry only 2x250 kg bombs in the bomb bay, and 2x100 kg bombs on the wings.
Why? The space available wouldn't shrink! What's the point of do that in that case?

And of course - a bomber/intruder that couldn't meet its minimum specs OR outperform a single-engined Jabo...or rather, as many single-engined aircraft as you can actually get for the same investment in engine numbers and raw manufacturing materials...would NEVER be approved.
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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

#59

Post by BDV » 25 Sep 2012, 00:19

The fuselage has to be heavier,too. It has to hold in place extra 660 kg during maneuvers. Add a few extra gallons of kerosene (603 was less efficient per HP-hour). Higher fuselage+engine will increase the forces on the wings so those get to be heavier.

Now, a sturdier plane with sturdier wings will be able to carry more ordnance when on a bombing run. OTOH the bigger fuselage of the 335 (e.g. bigger engines, extra-kerosene) penalizes the plane speed that would result from the higher engine power.

The schwere 335's higher bomb capacity is a given, but its extra speed over leichte 335 not so much.

As the leichte 335 (and even moreso the DeDo) are only figments of my imagination, it is not clear what their performance would be in reality. And their desirability depends critically on their real-life performance. An expert group like Willy's or Dewoitine's might have been able to squeeze the extra 20 mph that make the difference between "why bother" and "interesting".

P.S.
And it turns out, if there is ONE person Claude can cooperate with in France it must be Emile!
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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

#60

Post by phylo_roadking » 25 Sep 2012, 00:33

The fuselage has to be heavier,too. It has to hold in place extra 660 kg during maneuvers. Add a few extra gallons of kerosene (603 was less efficient per HP-hour). Higher fuselage+engine will increase the forces on the wings so those get to be heavier.

Now, a sturdier plane with sturdier wings will be able to carry more ordnance when on a bombing run. OTOH the bigger fuselage of the 335 (e.g. bigger engines, extra-kerosene) penalizes the plane speed that would result from the higher engine power.
You don't seem to have grasped that extra strengthening doesn't mean a bigger fuselage - it just means that each individual frame member in certain places has to be stronger I.E. maybe thicker...or angles get filleted more, or I-section is used rather than plain section etc., etc. - any one of a dozen stengthening methods

Components might simply get bigger...but then the spaces between them get smaller! The fuselage formed from them doesn't necessarily get bigger! 8O
An expert group like Willy's or Dewoitine's might have been able to squeeze the extra 20 mph that make the difference between "why bother" and "interesting".
Except...as I've noted several times now...."Willy's" team are busy making something else equally interesting ;)

One thing NOT to lose sight of is the intense rivalry between German aero companies; in cooperating with Dornier, Messerschitt are cutting their own throat for the Bf109 and its late 1940-on dual Jabo role...AND the bomber/intruder role of the 110 and its replacements! Do you really see them doing that? 8O
And it turns out, if there is ONE person Claude can cooperate with in France it must be Emile!
That would really be shooting himself in the foot ;) The extremely-prolonged and painful (under-)development history of the Dewoitine D.520 has been discussed several times on AHF before now...I thought you were trying to bring the 335 in EARLIER than OTL??? :lol: :lol: :lol:
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