P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

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BDV
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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

Post by BDV » 25 Sep 2012 00:39

phylo_roadking wrote:You don't seem to have grasped that extra strengthening doesn't mean a bigger fuselage - it just means that each individual frame member in certain places has to be stronger I.E. maybe thicker...or angles get filleted more, or I-section is used rather than plain section etc., etc. - any one of a dozen stengthening methods
But a pair of smaller engines with a smaller gas tank will fit in a smaller space!


Components might simply get bigger...but then the spaces between them get smaller! The fuselage formed from them doesn't necessarily get bigger!
But you can cram smaller components, and a smaller gas tank into a smaller space! If an plane designed for flying around a pair of 601s would accomodate a 603, that means that design was utterly wasteful and sloppy.


One thing NOT to lose sight of is the intense rivalry between German aero companies; in cooperating with Dornier, Messerschitt are cutting their own throat for the Bf109 and its late 1940-on dual Jabo role...AND the bomber/intruder role of the 110 and its replacements! Do you really see them doing that?
Depends whether Willy and Claude can be sold a bill of goods on a joint venture to rule all 3rd Reich fighter-bomber production! But, as I also said, the guy who needs to combine carrots and sticks to make this happen is happy to build his iron emporium and let german plane manufacturers disorganized - ergo weak.

And it turns out, if there is ONE person Claude can cooperate with in France it must be Emile!

That would really be shooting himself in the foot ;) The extremely-prolonged and painful (under-)development history of the Dewoitine D.520 has been discussed several times on AHF before now...I thought you were trying to bring the 335 in EARLIER than OTL???


"Tot patitu-i priceput" i.e. Experience is a hard teacher (approx).

If Claude would have had his 1945 knowledge of the politicking in 1940, the war would not have ended with a piddly dozen 335s planes to show for all his effort. Also Dewoitine was fairly quick in getting the D520 from the planchette to the frontline (18 months AFAIK). Dewoitine's expertise in navigating a byzantine bureaucracy might have helped...
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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

Post by phylo_roadking » 25 Sep 2012 00:50

But a pair of smaller engines with a smaller gas tank will fit in a smaller space!
But it's a high-G manouvering that really dictates how strong an airframe has to be; other considerations just feed into specific areas of the airframes's strength.
But you can cram smaller components, and a smaller gas tank into a smaller space! If an plane designed for flying around a pair of 601s would accomodate a 603, that means that design was utterly wasteful and sloppy.
Take a look again at the diagram I posted up a few days ago now; physically smaller engines would affect the length of the aircraft out front...but balance factors etc. dictate the position of the rear engine ;) Given that then fuel, a pilot, flight systems etc have to be crammed in, as well as a weapons' bay - there may not be any actual real size saving in the rest of the airframe.
Also Dewoitine was fairly quick in getting the D520 from the planchette to the frontline (18 months AFAIK).
Really? From Wiki -
The design of the D.520 started in September 1936...Work on the design of the D.520 was suspended throughout much of 1937...and it was not until January 1938 that a small number of draughtsmen started work on the first detail drawings for the prototype. This prototype, D.520-01, powered by a Hispano-Suiza 12Y-21 temporarily driving a fixed-pitch, two bladed wooden propeller, first flew on 2 October 1938, but only managed to reach 480 km/h (300 mph) in flight tests, and suffered from dangerously high engine temperatures
The prototype was followed in 1939 by two examples: D.520-02 and 03, first flown on 9 January and 5 May 1939 respectively...Flight tests proceeded successfully, resulting in a contract issued in March 1939 for 200 production machines to be powered by the newer -31 engine (later replaced by the -45). A contract for an additional 600 aircraft was issued in June, albeit reduced to 510 in July 1939....
The first production D.520 flew in October 1939...As the first batch of D.520s rolled off the production lines, they failed acceptance tests due to insufficient top speed and troublesome cooling. Redesigned compressor intakes, a modified cooling circuit and propulsive exhaust pipes proved to be effective remedies for these shortcomings, but as early examples had to be retrofitted with these improvements, the type was not declared combat ready until April 1940
I.E. nearly four years to get the D.520 from first pencil on paper to "operational"...18 months to go from first prototype flight to operational.
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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

Post by BDV » 25 Sep 2012 20:00

Without a HS12Y/DB601 push pull actual plane, whether they would/would not be any good is pure speculation.

The project (even the OTL 335) would have benefited of some more fighter expertise and political/decision taker support.
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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

Post by phylo_roadking » 25 Sep 2012 20:13

and political/decision taker support.
By this time more than 60 hours of flight time had been put on the Do 335 and reports showed it to be a good handling, but more importantly, very fast aircraft, described by Generalfeldmarschall Erhard Milch himself as "...holding its own in speed and altitude with the P-38 and it does not suffer from engine reliability issues".
On 23 May 1944, Hitler, as part of the Jägernotprogramm directive, ordered maximum priority to be given to Do 335 production...The decision was made, along with the rapid shut-down of many other military aircraft development programs, to cancel the Heinkel He 219 night fighter, and use its production facilities for the Do 335 as well.
The Do-335 was officially designated "Kampfflugzeug" (literally meaning combat plane, but actually meaning — in official use — bomber). In November 1944 an order was issued by the R.L.M. cancelling all bomber construction work. However, the officials recognized the real value of the Do-335 design and no cancelling order was issued for it. Göring ordered production at the Heinkel plant in Oranienburg. Finally, orders were issued to speed up Do-335 production and development
Doesn't look as if it was particularly short of "political/decision taker support"...quite the reverse, actually!
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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

Post by BDV » 25 Sep 2012 20:39

phylo_roadking wrote:Doesn't look as if it was particularly short of "political/decision taker support"...quite the reverse, actually!
1944? Too little, too late, maybe?

A 1940 german sharashka manned by Emil's team, to assist Claude with the pushpull schnellzerstorer, and Claude assisting Willy with his zerstorer project with a promise of 1/3 of 410 orders. Willy providing Claude with an inspection team to inspect sharashkas's output and make suggestions?

How many 335s did Heinkel build? Some political support!
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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

Post by phylo_roadking » 25 Sep 2012 21:10

By this time more than 60 hours of flight time had been put on the Do 335 and reports showed it to be a good handling, but more importantly, very fast aircraft, described by Generalfeldmarschall Erhard Milch...
Too little, too late, maybe?
As with many prototypes - could it actually have been any sooner? Some for instance turn out to be turkeys only when they appear in the metal and fly! Look for instance at the failure as a high-altitude interceptor the Hawker Typhoon turned out to be in the metal...or the "ergonomic slum" (and actually dangerous to the pilot) the Gloster Meteor proved to be!
How many 335s did Heinkel build? Some political support!
The decision was made, along with the rapid shut-down of many other military aircraft development programs, to cancel the Heinkel He 219 night fighter, and use its production facilities for the Do 335 as well. However, Ernst Heinkel managed to delay, and eventually ignore, its implementation.
The R.L.M. decided that the Heinkel plant at Vienna-Schwechat was now to produce the Do-335 under license. The other Heinkel plant that had been ordered to produce Do-335 aircraft at Oranienburg was at the time already in danger from mass bomb raids. But the Heinkel plants were overloaded with work from the He-162 and He-219 programs so that no large scale production could begin.


Support coming from one direction - opposition...and some very practical considerations...coming from the other direction.
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Re: P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

Post by Cantankerous » 08 Jun 2022 22:16

phylo_roadking wrote:
22 Sep 2012 20:23
Given that, in total, there were some 14-17 Do-335 prototypes(depending on source), not to mention the fact that it was not until the fifth Do-335 prototype that guns were mounted. Even with all these prototypes, by the end of the war, the Do-335 still had yet to enter series production.
V-4 however...was a different aircraft; it was the first TWO-SEATER 335 ;) It was a stronger and more simplified version of the 335 - but fitted with Jumo 222s. A dead end as these were never built in quantity.
It should be noted that the Do 335 V4 was basically designed to test the very long wings of the Do 435 two-seat multi-role night-fighter, of which four versions were planned (Do 435A bomber, Do 435B night-fighter, Do 435C reconnaissance aircraft, and Do 435D fighter control aircraft). The first flight of the Do 335 V4 took place on July 9, 1944, and test flights continued into October of that year. The Do 335 V10 (call sign CP+UK) was actually the first two-seat Do 335 to be built, being the prototype for the Do 335A-6 two-seat night fighter.

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