The Alexandrian Backdoor - to the Balkans

[Gooner1]

The assault on Malta would be in late March/early April and should be a mixed airborne-amphibious assault, after which (if successful), the surviving assets (landing ships - marinefahprahm, and Ju52s) can move to supporting the coastal advance of Axis troops.

Landing ships?

The first marinefährprahm was commissioned only on 16th April 1941.

[BDV]

The assault on Malta would be in late March/early April and should be a mixed airborne-amphibious assault, after which (if successful), the surviving assets (landing ships - marinefahprahm, and Ju52s) can move to supporting the coastal advance of Axis troops.

Landing ships?

The first marinefährprahm was commissioned only on 16th April 1941.

So Donitz' beloved TypVII's will also have to wait.

[phylo_roadking]

Malta is much closer to Italian home ports, thus the big guns could be used here. It is also near enough to provide constant air cover for said surface force. Italian landing forces, aided by German paras, should've been able to successfully attack Malta in those days. I think we tried to game that particular scenario on this very board a while ago...

And virtually every permutation and idea for 1940-41 fell flat on its face.

the surviving assets (landing ships - marinefahprahm, and Ju52s)

Theoretically, the losses of Ju52s at Malta would be heavier than Cete...

P.S. what landing ships and MFPs? The first MFPs rolled out of German yards in early 1941...NORTH German yards...

Those used in the Aegean in 1943 came down via a rather circuitous route including the Danube, Black Sea and Dardanelles IIRC; that route is going to be VERY questionable in March/April 1941....with CRETE at the very least still in Commonwealth hands, and no plans for a German attack on Crete - the RN operating from "the Med's finest anchorage", Suda Bay and the RAF operating from Crete's airfields will dominate the Aegean and into the southern Adriatic.

[Baltasar]

There is no 'should' about it.

"Q What effect have the operations in Crete had upon the possibility of defending Malta, Cyprus, &c.?"

A The situation in Malta is, of course, very different to that of either Crete or Cyprus. Malta is a fortress which has been in our possession for over 100 years and has powerful defences which are constantly being augmented. A great deal of underground accommodation is available, so that, although there have been almost incessant air raids for a year, the casualties have been trifling. There is a completely equipped and efficient garrison; the air defences consist of fighter aircraft and anti-aircraft guns, the strength of which at the end of June was—
Serviceable Hurricanes 50
Heavy Anti-aircraft guns 112
Light Anti-aircraft guns 72

It is hoped, before the end of this month, to increase the number of anti-aircraft guns to—
Heavy Anti-aircraft guns 112
Light Anti-aircraft guns 120

A good system of R.D.F. has been installed."

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarl ... 3-1-2.html

Gooner, I am aware that Malta was a British base of operations, but at the beginning of the war it was quite undermanned. Even with more men and equipment, the garrison could do little against the Italian navy if the latter had attacked the island. Due to it's rather small size, the Italians could basically reach any point of the island if neccessary.

At the same time, some odd 50 Hurricanes would be quickly overcome by sustained Axis air attacks and suppression missions against the airfields (or naval bombardments) would mean that British air cover would be gone rather quickly.

If a similar ammount of resources which have historically been used against Crete had been used against Malta instead, I very much suspect that Axis losses would've been much lower and that Malta would've fallen within few days.

British relief attempts would have to operate inside Axis air umbrella, not sure of they would've appreciated such an situation.

[Gooner1]

So Donitz' beloved TypVII's will also have to wait.

Yeah, and perhaps Der Führer can shit some out of his backside too.

[Gooner1]

Gooner, I am aware that Malta was a British base of operations, but at the beginning of the war it was quite undermanned. Even with more men and equipment, the garrison could do little against the Italian navy if the latter had attacked the island. Due to it's rather small size, the Italians could basically reach any point of the island if neccessary.

"Malta is a fortress which has been in our possession for over 100 years and has powerful defences which are constantly being augmented" but you think the British are so effing dense that they had no means of dealing with enemy ships? :roll:

[BDV]

Those used in the Aegean in 1943 came down via a rather circuitous route including the Danube, Black Sea and Dardanelles IIRC; that route is going to be VERY questionable in March/April 1941....with CRETE at the very least still in Commonwealth hands, and no plans for a German attack on Crete - the RN operating from "the Med's finest anchorage", Suda Bay and the RAF operating from Crete's airfields will dominate the Aegean and into the southern Adriatic.

There were ways to get the MFPs (and/or the SiebelFerries) there, and (as we're talking late 1940 early 1941) ways to get those in nominal control to acquiesce.

Couresy of Bundesarchiv/Wikimedia:



No one doubts that it would be a bloodbath, and very likely the ATL fallschirmjägerGrabstätte, but I have serious doubts that it would have held to an all out ItaloGerman assault. Without Malta falling to the Axis, though, the whole concept would fail, obviously.

[Baltasar]

Gooner, I am aware that Malta was a British base of operations, but at the beginning of the war it was quite undermanned. Even with more men and equipment, the garrison could do little against the Italian navy if the latter had attacked the island. Due to it's rather small size, the Italians could basically reach any point of the island if neccessary.

"Malta is a fortress which has been in our possession for over 100 years and has powerful defences which are constantly being augmented" but you think the British are so effing dense that they had no means of dealing with enemy ships? :roll:

None of the ones you quoted would be suitable and less so if faced with a number of ships.

[phylo_roadking]

At the same time, some odd 50 Hurricanes would be quickly overcome by sustained Axis air attacks and suppression missions against the airfields (or naval bombardments) would mean that British air cover would be gone rather quickly.

None of the ones you quoted would be suitable and less so if faced with a number of ships

This thread is rapidly turning into the same sort of non-sensical Malta WI that gets dismissed again after 50 or 60 pages where EVERYTHING is discussed all over again...

What are those 50-odd Hurricanes going to do to the "sustained" air assault? What RM vessels are fit to operate off Malta if the LW and RA doesn't have air superiority in and around Malta?

Suppressing the airfields doesn't work well on Malta - Luqa for example was basically an old quarry I.E. carved out of the island rock Hal Far can be temporarily damaged - but again, on that terrain bomb craters aren't hard to fill in. The LW DID for example try to suppress both fields during the "Illustrious Blitz"...but Hal Far was in operation after overnight repairs while Luqa never stopped flying off fighters.

And don't forget - an Italian fleet pinned to the islands to bombard them is EXACTLY what Cunningham wants - especially in March 1941 BEFORE all the attrition around Crete He'd be down on the RM like the proverbial Assyrian upon the fold in 36 hours at the very most....AGAIN as discusssed ad infinitum.

And don't forget the Axis tried "sustained" air attack; it didn't work.

There were ways to get the MFPs (and/or the SiebelFerries) there, and (as we're talking late 1940 early 1941) ways to get those in nominal control to acquiesce.

1/ HOW??? There are no interconnecting waterways to get them from North Germany to the South of France. Somewhere it means a rather inconvenient overland journey...

2/ I think you'd better check the delivery dates of the various MFP classes as mentioned several times already in this short thread.

[BDV]

What are those 50-odd Hurricanes going to do to the "sustained" air assault? What RM vessels are fit to operate off Malta if the LW and RA doesn't have air superiority in and around Malta?

Hurricanes? Hurricanes?!? 'Nuff said.

Suppressing the airfields doesn't work well on Malta - Luqa for example was basically an old quarry I.E. carved out of the island rock Hal Far can be temporarily damaged - but again, on that terrain bomb craters aren't hard to fill in. The LW DID for example try to suppress both fields during the "Illustrious Blitz"...but Hal Far was in operation after overnight repairs while Luqa never stopped flying off fighters.

And don't forget - an Italian fleet pinned to the islands to bombard them is EXACTLY what Cunningham wants - especially in March 1941 BEFORE all the attrition around Crete He'd be down on the RM like the proverbial Assyrian upon the fold in 36 hours at the very most....AGAIN as discusssed ad infinitum.

Well, the alternative is to get on one's hand an even bigger turd (i.e. Balkans) than Norway. The high cost of taking Malta combined with the continuous "cand Futache nu futica cand futica nu futache cand futica si futache nu futusi" Axis bumbling in North Africa let the Malta wound fester.

Obviously, "patch and pray" was not restricted to Axis field surgery.

And don't forget the Axis tried "sustained" air attack; it didn't work.

Sure did. It just that the British tactic of bleeding the Axis to death by the 1000 cuts approach worked so well in the Med. No sooner Malta was suppressed, than another hole needing urgent patching opened in the German flank.

1/ HOW??? There are no interconnecting waterways to get them from North Germany to the South of France. Somewhere it means a rather inconvenient overland journey...

There aren't?!?

2/ I think you'd better check the delivery dates of the various MFP classes as mentioned several times already in this short thread.

Not for Siebel ferries not for LWSs. Even if the MFPs cannot be pushed earlier (why not if this is a planned, not ad-hoc Merkur-style operation?) these amphibious assets do exist.

P.S. Don't forget I'm a staunch Gozo-1st advocate...

[Gooner1]

None of the ones you quoted would be suitable and less so if faced with a number of ships.

You don't think 100+ plus Heavy AA guns would be any threat to amphibious forces?

It should come as no surprise that there were quite a lot of guns on Malta that would be deadly even to armoured warships

[phylo_roadking]

What are those 50-odd Hurricanes going to do to the "sustained" air assault? What RM vessels are fit to operate off Malta if the LW and RA doesn't have air superiority in and around Malta?

Hurricanes? Hurricanes?!? 'Nuff said.

Hurricanes...Fulmars and Gladiators seemed to be enough to see off Ju88s and Ju87s during the "Illustrious Blitz"...

AND you're forgetting the effective Box Barrage that defended the island's airfields as well as Grand Harbour...

Sure did. It just that the British tactic of bleeding the Axis to death by the 1000 cuts approach worked so well in the Med. No sooner Malta was suppressed, than another hole needing urgent patching opened in the German flank.

When exactly was Malta "suppressed? When did the RAF stop flying out of Malta's fields? When did the RN stop operating submarine or coastal forces out of Malta?

There aren't?!?

No, there aren't, not reliably enough ...from Hutchinson's Encyclopedia -

It has a total length of 320 km, and there are more than 150 locks, most of which are accessible to vessels with carrying capacities reaching 250–300 tons. The guaranteed depth is 1.8 m

The MFPs had a draft of 1.45m....but the depth of the Rhine-Rhone Canal was seasonal-dependent And not necessarily as "guaranteed" as that encyclopedia entry would indicate! Late in 1941, for instance, a second batch of S-boats transiting from Rotterdam after being serviced there to the Med was held up for six weeks by low water level in the Canal!

And S-boats were how much smaller/shallower draught than MFPs...?

Not for Siebel ferries not for LWSs. Even if the MFPs cannot be pushed earlier (why not if this is a planned, not ad-hoc Merkur-style operation?)

"Planned"? Sealion was planned, and the MFPs ordered for that - and yet the very first didn't arrive in service for another ten months.

[BDV]

So there are. You said:

There are no interconnecting waterways to get them from North Germany to the South of France. Somewhere it means a rather inconvenient overland journey

Now, yes, Malta would come at an awful high price for the Axis, but in hindsight it could have been a worthy investment - if lower Egypt is conquered. Otherwise, yes, Suda Bay.

[phylo_roadking]

So there are.

Not reliably useable for MFPS.

Oh, and P.S. - that was the first MFPs...not the larger and heavier and deeper-drafted Type A1s actually developed for HERKULES!

Now, yes, Malta would come at an awful high price for the Axis, but in hindsight it could have been a worthy investment - if lower Egypt is conquered. Otherwise, yes, Suda Bay

"Otherwise, yes, Suda Bay" what?

[Baltasar]

dual post