The Alexandrian Backdoor - to the Balkans

Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: The Alexandrian Backdoor - to the Balkans

#76

Post by phylo_roadking » 29 Oct 2012, 17:41

phylo in particular going so far as to judge others to be better persons.
O really??? Nice little strawman there! :wink: THIS is what I posted -
And by better and better-informed posters than yourself
I could perhaps ask you why you ignored THIS -
There are several excellent resources which should be consulted before posting a question. One of them is the massive collection of previous forum posts and threads. At the top of the thread index page of many of the research sections of the forum, there are a series of announcements and research "stickies" which may be helpful. In addition, the forum has an excellent search engine of its own at:

search.php

....If a reader finds that there are pre-existing threads on the subject, we ask the readers to post there rather than start a new one. This makes it easier for subsequent readers to find and discuss the information they seek, rather than have to look through many different threads.
...before attempting to rehash the same arguments here as in other Malta threads?
QED
Straightforward does not seem to go along with polite with him.
And yet "being straightforward" seems to allow YOU gratuitous insults and strawmen??? :P
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

Gooner1
Member
Posts: 2776
Joined: 06 Jan 2006, 13:24
Location: London

Re: The Alexandrian Backdoor - to the Balkans

#77

Post by Gooner1 » 29 Oct 2012, 18:12

Baltasar wrote:
Funny enough, but that's actually what I wrote:
Well, kudos to you for moving your opinion on from: "If a similar ammount of resources which have historically been used against Crete had been used against Malta instead, I very much suspect that Axis losses would've been much lower and that Malta would've fallen within few days."


User avatar
BDV
Member
Posts: 3704
Joined: 10 Apr 2009, 17:11

Re: The Alexandrian Backdoor - to the Balkans

#78

Post by BDV » 29 Oct 2012, 18:13

Phylo,

When official photographic evidence can be handwaived aside with "Rasputitsa", sure, we are running in circles. (Rasputitsa? In E/SE France?!?)

The quality of british infantry units and british land unit commanders was mediocre with bright spots far and few. In these conditions, to state that the glorified militia that was guarding the three islands and the many (many) miles of shoreline, and the many (many) critical points, would overnight transform into the 101st Airborne is ridiculous at best. That they'd perform in any close to the ANZAC veterans in Crete is insulting to the intelligence of the posters.

And to the thread on the Malta cripple fight (aka italians vs. malta militia 1940), that was a fine piece of work. Some argued that strafing is a physical impossibility. To top that, we now add the impassable inexistent waterways which exist and allow transfer of german landingships only in german official photos.


I did not foresee Malta-infatuation becoming such a major stumbling block on the thread, I was more interested in the feasibility of an uber-DAK+Italians lunge towards Alexandria. That's IMO much less of a given, knowing what transpired in OTL.
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: The Alexandrian Backdoor - to the Balkans

#79

Post by phylo_roadking » 29 Oct 2012, 18:30

When official photographic evidence can be handwaived aside with "Rasputitsa", sure, we are running in circles. (Rasputitsa? In E/SE France?!?)
So you're stating that that definitely, officially IS a pic of the Rhine-Rhone Canal???

P.S. I was talking about weather...and recognised 1941 weather trends - YOU can't even answer THIS -
WHICH French waterway with WHAT depth of water at WHAT time of year and in WHICH year?
The quality of british infantry units and british land unit commanders was mediocre with bright spots far and few. In these conditions, to state that the glorified militia that was guarding the three islands and the many (many) miles of shoreline, and the many (many) critical points, would overnight transform into the 101st Airborne is ridiculous at best. That they'd perform in any close to the ANZAC veterans in Crete is insulting to the intelligence of the posters.
1/ Before you can say THIS - "that they'd perform in any close to the ANZAC veterans in Crete is insulting to the intelligence of the posters" you REALLY need to take a close look at a FULL history of the Crete invasion;

2/ "The quality of british infantry units and british land unit commanders was mediocre with bright spots far and few" YOU need to prove that the battalions on Malta WERE indeed medicore for that comment to be worth anything.

3/ five out of seven battalions were NOT "glorified militia";

4/ "that was guarding the three islands and the many (many) miles of shoreline" - Oh? Perhaps you'd care to tell us with sources how many men were consumed guarding Gozo and Comino....
And to the thread on the Malta cripple fight (aka italians vs. malta militia 1940), that was a fine piece of work.
Oh in SO many ways ;) Am I correct in recalling that the idea of landing a division by two-man manned torpedoes was YOUR idea???
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

Gooner1
Member
Posts: 2776
Joined: 06 Jan 2006, 13:24
Location: London

Re: The Alexandrian Backdoor - to the Balkans

#80

Post by Gooner1 » 29 Oct 2012, 18:41

BDV wrote:
The quality of british infantry units and british land unit commanders was mediocre with bright spots far and few.
What a spectacularly ignorant statement to make. One the German army would certainly not have made - (at least when they were winning :roll: )

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: The Alexandrian Backdoor - to the Balkans

#81

Post by phylo_roadking » 29 Oct 2012, 19:39

It might be an idea if BDV checked out the later war record of the battalions on Malta as of 1939-40 ;)

P.S. just as an aside - in March 1941, the garrison was at the peak of fitness; strict rationing down to 2,300 calories daily for Army personnel wasn't introuced on Malta until April 1941...
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

User avatar
Baltasar
Member
Posts: 4614
Joined: 21 Feb 2003, 16:56
Location: Germany

Re: The Alexandrian Backdoor - to the Balkans

#82

Post by Baltasar » 29 Oct 2012, 20:06

Gooner1 wrote:
Baltasar wrote:
Funny enough, but that's actually what I wrote:
Well, kudos to you for moving your opinion on from: "If a similar ammount of resources which have historically been used against Crete had been used against Malta instead, I very much suspect that Axis losses would've been much lower and that Malta would've fallen within few days."

And to you for a) not acknowledging when a suspicion is voiced and b) for absolutely ignoring when the intend of the idea is made clear in such a way that the poster wouldn't know how to formulate it more clearly. :roll:

User avatar
waldzee
Banned
Posts: 1422
Joined: 03 Feb 2012, 04:44
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: The Alexandrian Backdoor - to the Balkans

#83

Post by waldzee » 30 Oct 2012, 02:19

Kingfish wrote:
phylo_roadking wrote: OR JUST TRY THE SEARCH FUNCTION. There is NO aspect of the Malta situation that has NOT been discussed previously on this board.
Yeah, well what would happen if the Axis tunneled underneath the Med to emerge at Mosta?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
'ahh, a fellow hermann soegel fan.. :P .
http://www.damninteresting.com/mediterranean-be-dammed/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Back ontopic- in 1940, summer, no matter how well trained, there were only 3000 British Empire troops & six bi plane fighters guarding Malta. In effect, Britain pulled off a huge 'bluff', as a makeshift Italian invasion would have swamped them.
Without Malta, the Italian invasion of Egypt might as well just stayed home.
Never have so many owed so much to a handfull of guys flying rejected wood & canvas... :o
hal far fighter flight maltahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Far_Fighter_Flight
Last edited by waldzee on 30 Oct 2012, 02:56, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: The Alexandrian Backdoor - to the Balkans

#84

Post by phylo_roadking » 30 Oct 2012, 02:38

Back ontopic- in 1940, summer, no matter how well trained, there were only 3000 British Empire troops & six bi plane fighters guarding Malta. In effect, Britain pulled off a huge 'bluff', as a makeshift Italian invasion would have swamped them.
That's not ontopic; ontopic is March 1941 ;)

DIfferent Med situation, different factors influencing the Italians and Germans.
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

User avatar
waldzee
Banned
Posts: 1422
Joined: 03 Feb 2012, 04:44
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: The Alexandrian Backdoor - to the Balkans

#85

Post by waldzee » 30 Oct 2012, 03:44

phylo_roadking wrote:
Back ontopic- in 1940, summer, no matter how well trained, there were only 3000 British Empire troops & six bi plane fighters guarding Malta. In effect, Britain pulled off a huge 'bluff', as a makeshift Italian invasion would have swamped them.
That's not ontopic; ontopic is March 1941 ;)

DIfferent Med situation, different factors influencing the Italians and Germans.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++\
so You are agreeing that a 1940 summer/fall invasion fo Malta would have probably succeeded?

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: The Alexandrian Backdoor - to the Balkans

#86

Post by phylo_roadking » 30 Oct 2012, 03:48

so You are agreeing that a 1940 summer/fall invasion fo Malta would have probably succeeded?
No, not at all; if you've read the Malta 1940 thread, there was possibly even LESS chance of it succeeding then.

What I'm saying is -
...March 1941

DIfferent Med situation, different factors influencing the Italians and Germans
...and the garrison in a very different shape from 1940. The situation is different, not better, for the Axis; still bad, but for different reasons.
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

User avatar
waldzee
Banned
Posts: 1422
Joined: 03 Feb 2012, 04:44
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: The Alexandrian Backdoor - to the Balkans

#87

Post by waldzee » 30 Oct 2012, 04:29

phylo_roadking wrote:
so You are agreeing that a 1940 summer/fall invasion fo Malta would have probably succeeded?
No, not at all; if you've read the Malta 1940 thread, there was possibly even LESS chance of it succeeding then.

What I'm saying is -
...March 1941

DIfferent Med situation, different factors influencing the Italians and Germans
...and the garrison in a very different shape from 1940. The situation is different, not better, for the Axis; still bad, but for different reasons.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
that one got personal fast!
In 1940 the first wave does not have to take Malta- the two smaller islands will do.3,000 troops means 300 on gozo, 150 on the 'C ' roc k.. :D

User avatar
Marcus
Member
Posts: 33963
Joined: 08 Mar 2002, 23:35
Location: Europe
Contact:

Re: The Alexandrian Backdoor - to the Balkans

#88

Post by Marcus » 30 Oct 2012, 08:39

This thread is locked after several posts directed at other posters instead of the topic at hand.

/Marcus

Locked

Return to “What if”