Luftwaffe only has to fight the VVS

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KDF33
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Re: Luftwaffe only has to fight the VVS

Post by KDF33 » 14 Dec 2012 21:35

No, only the Jagdgeschwader, Nachtjagdgeschwader, Kampfgeschwader, Sturzkampfgeschwader, Schlachtgeschwader, Zerstörergeschwader, i.e., combat units.

Regarding JG4: it was established in August 1942 to protect against Allied bombing. Previous units in Romania, especially at the beginning of Barbarossa, should obviously be allocated "East".

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1st Cavalry
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Re: Luftwaffe only has to fight the VVS

Post by 1st Cavalry » 15 Dec 2012 11:44

it was not a full Jagdgeschwader but a gruppe albeit by august 1943 the german presence included also
IV. Gruppe Nachtjagdgeschwader 6 (including 1 Romanian Me 110 squadron ) plus a ME 109G squadron attached to I. Gruppe Jagdgeschwader 4.

going back to east front deployments i came up with the following totals :

Germany 1019 combat aircraft
France 526 combat aircraft
Italy 854 combat aircraft
Norway 268 combat aircraft
Russia 1794 combat aircraft
Romania 40 combat aircraft

strictly Russia amounts to 39.8 % , if i include Norway it is 45.8 % so there must be something different in your calculation otherwise we would have arrived at the same figures . The squadrons in Russia have a large variety of observation/harassment aircraft 209 in total , i take it that you did not count those ? At the beginning of Barbarossa the number of german recon aircraft was around 450 .

KDF33
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Re: Luftwaffe only has to fight the VVS

Post by KDF33 » 15 Dec 2012 20:43

Correct. I didn't include the Störkampfstaffeln since they're not really combat types, but noncombat types modified for harassment duties.

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Re: Luftwaffe only has to fight the VVS

Post by gracie4241 » 07 Aug 2018 20:40

Guess I'm a LL fanboy . Actually my thesis in college back in the 60's (I know) was in fact on the strategic utility of Lend Lease(got an A from my history professor-an admitted communist -to me-btw).Since the 90's (opening of heretofore closed archives) any number of Russian historians and commentators with unspellable names have shed more light.It is clearer to me now that LL was MORE important than even I had originally thought.This is less for complete weapons (like tanks etc-although they and combat aircraft appear to have represented a constant 15% of Soviet deployed strength), than about raw materials and items like machine tools.It seems as if 33-50%+ of Russian aluminum, copper, specialty rolled steel, ammunition and chemicals/explosives,radios,locomotives, rail line, high octane aviation fuel , refinery equipment and machine tools as aforesaid. Basically, the Russians concentrated on tanks, 15% of their armament production compared to 5%!! for the germans, guns and tactical aircraft and filled in the blanks with LL or LL derived materials. This should not be a surprise, because according to the Russian's own figures they only produced 8 million tons of steel in 42, and peaked at 12 million in 44.The germans produced (greater Germany) 28-33 million tons during those years. The figures for aluminum, coal etc were likewise lopsided.They on the other hand had WIDELY spread production because of the different wars they were fighting (1600 U-boats built or under construction, 35,000!!!! V-1 and 2 missles(that's not a typo) and the underground factories to build them(their manhattan Project)...etc.You can google this information from current sources, and I believe the USSBS has some info too believe it or not.THERE WAS NO CHANCE of Russia winning the war w- out LL and direct Allied efforts across the board-NONE

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Re: Luftwaffe only has to fight the VVS

Post by gracie4241 » 12 Aug 2018 16:39

Has the following been considered? Assuming peace with Britain. start off by crediting the 3500 planes lost fighting the British July 1940-June 1941(Murray, Strategy for defeat).At Barborossa 2700(on hand) out of 4300 first line aircraft were employed. No western Front so give them another 1000.That gives me 7200 planes on June 22 instead of 2700!!!!In july 1940 Germany had 1700 bombers total-in june 41 only 1500 total with 950 assigned to Russia. The germans had lost 2000 or so bombers already. Put them as well as most of the western deployed bombers to the East and you start the campaign with approx. 3000 plus bombers instead of 950!! Think that's a difference maker? Consider that german losses from ALL causes in the East ran BELOW their actual production( even at low levels of production 41-42) their absolute numerical strength would have continuously GROWN. Consider debiting from the VVS allied planes given under Lend Lease and used, as well as the machine tools , aluminum,high octane AVGAS. etc provided their air force and aviation industry. I don't think the topic at hand is even close. Germany would have had decisive air superiority at the outset that would have INCREASED over time

gracie4241
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Re: Luftwaffe only has to fight the VVS

Post by gracie4241 » 12 Aug 2018 21:10

War winning weaponry is an interesting Monday morning exercise.Things are always harder to see looking forward.Also Tooze does a REALLY good job in his chapter "Fighting two wars at once" that illustrates the difficulty germany had having to fight two different KINDS of war, whereas Russia only had one, and had PLENTY of help in doing so with irreplaceable raw materials( aluminum,copper,specialty rolled steel etc AND critically (but never mentioned)machine tools.If a tank is made at a Russian factory,using machine tools from Detroit,rolled steel, and aluminum for its engine from Canada. radio installed from America and fires ammunition from America, is it REALLY A RUSSIAN Tank?Plus you seem to accept Russian figures as gospel-they even lied to themselves in the 80's about their own GDP-why? anyway germant felt compelled to Build 35, 000 !!!! V-1 and 2 missles, 1600 uboats, 25,000 apc's (comparable Russian number -zero) they built 20,000 locomotives to 74???!! Russian( virtually every of rail track and every locomotive from 1942 on came from the west. Germany built and manned 24/7 a radar station every 10 miles from the North Cape to southern France, 10,000 searchlight batteries, doubled (at MINIMUM ) Russian domestic ammunition (up to 30%) for home based anti-aircraft guns, etc etc.I've seen analysis based on costs per standardized currency values indicating that Germany's defence output was probably 50% higher in total to Russia's (not counting lost production from airattack) in 1944. Russia was able to concentrate basically on tanks, tactical aircraft, and guns virtually to the exclusion of everything else.When your wartime steel production was only a third of Germany that makes sense.The Russian fanboys on this site astound me

gracie4241
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Re: Luftwaffe only has to fight the VVS

Post by gracie4241 » 04 Sep 2018 15:47

Thought the subject was Luftwaffe v VVS.No one has provided an answer to the following(to my knowledge): assuming peace w Britain in june 1940 the Luftwaffe immediately gains 3500 planes(and experienced pilots) lost against Britain July 40 to june 41.Added to the Barborossa figure of 2700 planes at the start that gives the germans 6200!!! planes No campaign in the west and med means the great majority of the 1600 non Barborossa (say 1000-remember these are first line figures) gives you at least 7200 planes on june 22, 1941 as compared to 2700!!! Are you kidding me??The Luftwaffe had 1700 bombers on July 1, 1940. They had 1500 on june 22,1941(200 less), of which only 950 were available for Barborossa.The 2000+ bombers lost against Britain would have made 3700 bombers available as compared to 950!!!! German aircraft production ALWAYS exceeded their losses on the Eastern Front-even when relatively low in 41-42-so their aircraft strength could only go up.If you take away the 15% of western aircraft in action with the VVS, and (hard to figure exactly) , further discount the machine tools, aluminum, high octane aviation gas, radios etc provided under LL a considerably weaker VVS would be facing a DRAMATICALLY larger Luftwaffe which grew every year( my estimate is 12-15,000 first line planes by July 1943) Game, set,match. Not sure why this is even a topic of conversation.BTW we haven't even mentioned 25-30,000 german anti aircraft guns in Germany which would be able to shoot at Russian aircraft.The Luftwaffe would have annihilated the Russian air force-and helped win the war in the East.Not even close

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Re: Luftwaffe only has to fight the VVS

Post by gracie4241 » 24 Sep 2018 16:04

Russia outproduced Germany in War winning weaponry??? Nonsense, unless your referring only toward winning the one dimensional war Russia fought.Germany had a multi-dimensional, multi-domain, multi-front war to fight which was the killer.As I noted earlier the "opportunity cost"( nice euphemism for labor, materials etc) for the U- Boat program alone was 30,000 tanks(USSBS report based on Speer's armament industry records), or 150 panzer division worth. How many submarines did Russia build?(hint:close to zero) According to the recent "A Re-assessment of German Armament Production during WW 2" Salavakos, University of Athens, Germany in constructing the West Wall and in producing 35,000 V-1 and V-2 missles forfeited resources equivalent to SIXTY THOUSAND combat aircraft!! (which answers the ridiculous argument about VVS v Luftwaffe. How about Germany Producing over Three times Soviet ammunition production(only domestic, excluding Lend Lease) !7,000 locomotives to 74!!(again excluding Lend Lease-the Russians basically shut down their rolling stockindustry like their naval). How about Germany having 200 radar stations along the Atlantic Coast alone, and 11,000 searchlight batteries, or 13,000 ( By Jan 1944) guns above 88mm(to 128 mm) and having only just over 7,000 guns of similar caliber on the Eastern Front? This absurd over rating of Soviet Production( not counting the assist thereto of Allied machine tools and raw materials such as aluminum, copper etc) has gone on too long. The Russians deserve credit for doing as well as they did, by ruthless concentration on a limited range of items, and equally ruthless(and effective) production methods-from an economy at best only 60-65% of Germany (late 41-44)-see Bellamy 'Total war". Germany CONSIDERABLY out produced Russia OVERALL because they did not have the good fortune of a one dimensional conflict-if they had they would have as Albert Seaton conclude "Crushed the Soviet Union

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Re: Luftwaffe only has to fight the VVS

Post by Hiryu- » 25 Sep 2018 23:35

gracie4241 wrote:
24 Sep 2018 16:04
How about Germany Producing over Three times Soviet ammunition production(only domestic, excluding Lend Lease) !
Do you have a proper source for this? Because it looks like fantasy.

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