1940 No Vichy: France joins the Axis

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Carl Schwamberger
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Re: 1940 No Vichy: France joins the Axis

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 09 Dec 2012 02:55

Not read that book. Assuming Cousteaus divers did identify the Sucrofs wreck in the Carribean then it is difficult to imagine it was 'fleeing' to Vichy territory.

Orwell1984
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Re: 1940 No Vichy: France joins the Axis

Post by Orwell1984 » 09 Dec 2012 03:55

Von Schadewald wrote:
Orwell1984 wrote: (like the Surcouf becoming the terror of the seas. You need to do a little more research on how successful a design it was. More like a white elephant)
Has the idea that the Surcouf sank Allied ships & was fleeing to Vichy territory been 100% discounted?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Who-Sank-Surcou ... 0712639756
James Rusbridger, the author of the book you refer to, does thoroughly discount those rumors in his book. In Chapter Five "Into Battle" he takes apart the rumours the Surcouf torpedoed Allied ships in the convoys it was involved in (HX118 and SC 27). In Chapter 9 "Myths and Rumours" he shows that other rumours of Surcouf attacking Allied shipping or attempting to flee to Vichy territory fail to stand up to the historical evidence available. Rusbridger makes no bones about the fact that Surcouf was an unhappy ship, that relations between the French crew serving on the ship and the British Admiralty were not good and there was much mistrust on both sides. The submarine was also in poor repair and not really combat ready. Finding a suitable job for it was difficult as well. Rusbridger finally looks at all the potential causes of the loss of the submarine and goes up with one that seems to fit the evidence the best: accidently sunk by US planes operating out of Panama on 19th of February 1942 after being damaged in a collision with the SS Thompson Lykes

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Robert Rojas
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RE: 1940 No Vichy: France Joins The Axis.

Post by Robert Rojas » 22 Oct 2018 01:15

Greetings to both citizen Von Schadewald and the community as a whole. Howdy V.S.! Well sir, in respect to your introductory posting of Wednesday - December 05, 2012 - 9:27am, as with other contributors to this hypothetical creation, old yours truly must take umbrage with your perceptions of the role of Metropolitan France after the collapse of The Third Republic in the early Summer of year 1940. Unless the British Commonwealth cravenly acquiesces to Adolf Hitler's so-called "APPEAL TO REASON" after The Third Republic formally capitulates to both National Socialist Germany and Fascist Italy, I personally do not envision the subsequent establishment of a wholly independent Metropolitan France with formal membership within the Axis Alliance. In short, Great Britain MUST be politically neutralized before National Socialist Germany even considers a general military withdrawal from metropolitan France much less the total repatriation of all French prisoners-of-war that were taken prior to the Armistice of Compiegne on June 22, 1940. Once that codicil has been diplomatically achieved, then the recently installed regime of ultra conservative Marshal Philippe Pétain can go about the governance of the newly formed STATE OF FRANCE. After the unseemly political and military debacle of The Third Republic, I rather suspect that the "average" French citizen will passionately thirst for PEACE and ORDER. I, for one, do NOT foresee an Axis Metropolitan France embroiling itself too deeply into the maelstrom that Adolf Hitler will subsequently create for himself on June 22, 1941. By and large, the heavy industries of metropolitan France will contribute its fair share of material support to sate Adolf Hitler's ambitions in the primordial hinterlands of Old Muscovy, but beyond that, an Axis Metropolitan France will studiously avoid entanglements on the continent of Europe. Militarily, an Axis Metropolitan France, like its defunct Third Republic predecessor, will more likely concern itself with the maintenance and security of its global extraterritorial possessions. However, unlike the now defunct Third Republic, foreign policy will NOT be business as usual. Under significant diplomatic pressure from Berlin, an Axis Metropolitan France will accommodate the Imperial Japanese Empire by granting Tokyo unfettered access to the natural resources of Indochina. In addition, the Imperial Japanese Navy will also be granted unrestricted basing and refueling rights at the deep water Port of Cam Ran Bay. To add insult to injury, the Roosevelt Administration will institute the ACT OF HAVANA on August 02, 1940, which, under its hemispheric security provisions, could lead to the occupation of French Guiana in South America and the French West Indies in the Caribbean Sea. Finally, an Axis Metropolitan France will make available the Island of Madagascar for National Socialist Germany's so-called EICHMANN PLAN for the resettlement of the not so inconsequential Hebraic Minority of Europe. With the assumption of this Herculean responsibility, an Axis Metropolitan France, along with the financial collaboration of Europe's Rothschild Dynasty, will invest considerable capital resources to develop the infrastructure of Madagascar. I need not dwell upon National Socialist Germany's "alternative solution" for the Hebraic problem. Beyond that, at least for the time being, I shalll forego interjecting any commentary gravitating upon an Axis Metropolitan France's potential relationships and acts of potential cooperation with the nations of Italy, Portugal and Spain on the continent of Africa. Now, not to be outdone, I see you brought up the less than relevant topic of Canada's ever rambunctious Québécois. WHY DID YOU STOP THERE!? You could have also brought up the less than relevant topic of the State of Louisiana's ever rambunctious Cajuns. It's just some passing food for thought. Jambalaya anyone? Well, that is my initial two cents, pfennigs or centimes worth on this Frankish topic of interest from the not too distant past - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day over in your corner of the ever fractious Balkans.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

Carl Schwamberger
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Re: 1940 No Vichy: France joins the Axis

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 23 Oct 2018 14:19

Taking another look at the effects of the French colonies being picked off by the Brits if hostile, or more likely outright deserting to the Allied side. A Axis French government looks like a advantage for the Allies. I'm intrigued by the idea of one of more of the three colonies in NW Africa requesting US military presence in early 41 to help ensure their continued neutrality. When Hitler finally get around to declaring war on the US then there is already a Allied naval and air force presence on Italys doorstep

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Robert Rojas
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RE: No Vichy: France Joins The Axis.

Post by Robert Rojas » 24 Oct 2018 00:06

Greetings to both brother Carl Schwamberger and the community as a whole. Howdy Carl! Well sir, in respect to your posting of Tuesday - October 23, 2018 - 5:19am, old yours truly is also of the anecdotal opinion that an Axis Metropolitan France "MIGHT" unintentionally prove far more advantageous to the strategic interests of both the British Commonwealth and the United States of America over that of the Axis Alliance. With that said, one should never say never to any possibility and I would certainly not at all discount the very strong likelihood of incremental secessionim taking root within the extraterritorial possessions of the STATE OF FRANCE. In terms of colonial secessionism, one must not only consider the WHERE and WHEN of the event, but also the potential reaction of both the STATE OF FRANCE and the remainder of the Axis Alliance. As tempting targets of opportunity as they might be, I do not readily foresee an independence AND neutrality minded Morocco or Algeria being ripe for American intervention in the first three months of year 1941. Whether there is OR is not an armed struggle for independence in either Morocco or Algeria, the French Army, by itself, will retain more than enough requisite manpower and resources to adequately quell such an insurgency. In addition, since there is no active military conflict between the British Commonwealth and the Axis Alliance on the continent of Africa, then Fascist Italy will also be in a position to bolster the STATE OF FRANCE with the necessary manpower and resources should the French Army find itself in the unlikely position of being spread too thinly in the Northwest Quadrant of Africa. In addition, the Tangier International Zone is and has been under Spanish military occupation since the cessation of hostilities in Western Europe in June of year 1940. However, if it is the blatant desire of the Roosevelt Administration to openly provoke a war with the Axis Alliance under the guise of protecting the recently declared independence AND neutrality of both Morocco and Algeria, then landing an American intervention force on the Atlantic shores of Morocco will more than likely fit the bill. The next questions are these, how will Prime Minister Edward F.L. Wood (First Earl of Halifax) of Great Britain react to the event or events in Northwest Africa? Will Adolf Hitler now cancel Operation Barbarossa scheduled for June 22, 1941? Finally, eight months before the historical attack on Pearl harbor, will the Imperial Japanese Empire now be drawn into direct conflict with the United States of America? There is much to ponder. Well, that is my latest two cents, pfennigs and centimes worth on this Frankish topic of interest from the not too distant past - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day from sea to shining sea.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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Re: 1940 No Vichy: France joins the Axis

Post by Sid Guttridge » 24 Oct 2018 11:22

In writing, "The French raised enough Milice and SS volunteers to show that there was considerable support for Germany after the defeat." von Shadwald is working on a false premise.

Firstly, the entire raison d'etre of the Vichy regime was to recover the territory lost to Germany, including Alsace and Lorraine. Their fleet flagship was called Strasbourg and their army preserved one of the regiments based in Alsace or Lorraine. All their secret military planning was directed at helping any Allied landing, either by advancing to the Atlantic or holding redoubts on the Mediterranean coast or in the mountainous interior. They also persistently broke the armistice conditions by hiding banned weapons, developing new ones and adapting existing ones. Their military intelligence service fed the Allies information on the Germans, including preparations for invading the USSR.

Given the size of the French population, there were very few French volunteers for the Germans and they seem to have performed poorly. The original LVF had to be taken out the line almost immediately and was used for anti-partisan operations. The Milice were raised for internal enforcement, not for use against the Allies. They only ended up in the W-SS because when the Allies over ran France in late 1944 they fled to Germany. The Charlemagne "division" was a division in name only. It never operated as a cohesive formation and fell apart rapidly when exposed to combat.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: 1940 No Vichy: France joins the Axis

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 24 Oct 2018 15:26

Sid Guttridge wrote:
24 Oct 2018 11:22
...

Given the size of the French population, there were very few French volunteers for the Germans and they seem to have performed poorly. The original LVF had to be taken out the line almost immediately and was used for anti-partisan operations. The Milice were raised for internal enforcement, not for use against the Allies. They only ended up in the W-SS because when the Allies over ran France in late 1944 they fled to Germany. The Charlemagne "division" was a division in name only. It never operated as a cohesive formation and fell apart rapidly when exposed to combat. ...
In November 1942 the Germans proposed a French infantry division to fight in Tunisia. They attempted to form a regiment, and ended up with a company size group of volunteers.

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