Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

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ljadw
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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

Post by ljadw » 07 Jan 2022 07:40

wm wrote:
06 Jan 2022 22:31
ljadw wrote:
06 Jan 2022 21:19
As Poland, it could only survive without war .
Strangely Poland survived with war, and as basically the only European country that didn't collaborate with the Nazis. Isn't honor worth something?
Poland of 1939 did not survive the war : it lost almost half of its territory and millions of deaths .
And honor :is it worth to die for ?

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wm
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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

Post by wm » 07 Jan 2022 09:44

So it follows Germany, the USSR, Japan didn't survive the war either. Poor devils, so much effort, and no survival.

Honor is important because people who project weakness, who are believed they won't fight make aggression against them inevitable.

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wm
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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

Post by wm » 07 Jan 2022 10:24

DZKriz wrote:
07 Jan 2022 04:55
And well ... that "marginal cause" really bit the British in their arses, when the Germans using in good part Czech guns and even Czech tanks drove the Brits two years later into the sea at Dunkirk ;-)
Would you send your son to die so some people were denied their right to self-determination? Would you send him to die for the human rights of the Ughurs?

In 1938 Hitler was still regarded as a reasonable politician, who respected the usual rules of diplomacy. The only openly hostile (towards everyone) was the Soviet Union.
It was reasonable to give peace the (last) chance.
Hiter actually wanted war in 1938 badly, he was stopped in the last moment by his own men, and just barely. So it would be a war on his terms.

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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

Post by Boby » 07 Jan 2022 14:37

wm wrote:
07 Jan 2022 10:24
DZKriz wrote:
07 Jan 2022 04:55
And well ... that "marginal cause" really bit the British in their arses, when the Germans using in good part Czech guns and even Czech tanks drove the Brits two years later into the sea at Dunkirk ;-)
Would you send your son to die so some people were denied their right to self-determination? Would you send him to die for the human rights of the Ughurs?

In 1938 Hitler was still regarded as a reasonable politician, who respected the usual rules of diplomacy. The only openly hostile (towards everyone) was the Soviet Union.
It was reasonable to give peace the (last) chance.
Hiter actually wanted war in 1938 badly, he was stopped in the last moment by his own men, and just barely. So it would be a war on his terms.
In 1938 Hitler was stopped by no one, except himself.

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wm
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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

Post by wm » 07 Jan 2022 14:53

As the deadline for Hitler’s ultimatum approached, Goebbels decided to head him off. The British and French ambassadors got to Hitler first, bringing fragrant fresh proposals. Ribbentrop was furious that war might be averted.

‘He nurtures a blind hatred of Britain,’ decided Goebbels. ‘Göring, Neurath, and I urge Hitler to accept. . . You can’t get into what may well turn into a world war over procedural issues.
Göring . . . totally shares my viewpoint and gives Ribbentrop a piece of his mind.’

‘Mein Führer,’ he blurted out over lunch in Hitler’s chancellery on the twenty-eighth, ‘if you think that the German public is thirsting for war, you are wrong. They watch its approach with a leaden sense of apathy.’

In that instant Hitler changed his mind. According to Ribbentrop’s Staatssekretär Ernst von Weizsäcker it was primarily Goebbels who persuaded Hitler to back off from war at this, the eleventh hour.
Goebbels Mastermind of the Third Reich by David Irving

Boby
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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

Post by Boby » 07 Jan 2022 15:19

Hitler was bluffing, as usual. How can a person radically change his mind just because a few stupid words?

Imho, from the start, he has no intention to go to war.

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wm
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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

Post by wm » 07 Jan 2022 16:41

Hitler's greatest fear was the Germans wouldn't support his wars, or maybe even rebel against them.
The words weren't that stupid.

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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

Post by PunctuationHorror » 07 Jan 2022 16:45

Ah, history of Bohemia.

The place where Czechs, Slovaks, Germans, Magyiars, Poles, Jews, and who else lived together and prospered together for centuries because of this unique mixture - and were looted/leeched by their rulers.

In 1993 people in Bohemia were occupied by Czech criminals.
In 1945 people in Bohemia were occupied by communist Czech and Soviet criminals who ruined the country. Put idiots in high positions and made smart people to idiots.
In 1938 people in Bohemia were occupied by Nazi criminals.
In 1806 people in Bohemia were occupied by other Habsburg criminals, who were still feudalist. Anachronism and insanity till 1918.
In 1526 people in Bohemia were occupied by feudalist Habsburg criminals.
Pre 1526 people in Bohemia were occupied by feudalist criminals.

For centuries, no ruler cared about nationality or language of 'his' 'serving' peasants. Even religion was not that important. The western borders of todays Czechia are the same as in the middle ages: They are constant for centuries. It is not Benes merit that Soviet re-established them in 1945. However, this man is responsible for ethnic cleansing in Bohemia and expelled people who lived there for centuries. Something that neither Habsburgs nor the Nazis did do.

I see not much difference between Hitler and Benes. Both were nationalist fanatics and ruthless psychopaths. Both were wannabe-burgeois thugs with similar mentality.
Where does the myth of a 'long time thinking' Benes come from? What sort of folklore is this?

In 1968 they came up with the idea that they did not need these 'ruling' leeches. This sort of impudence could not be allowed. Czech communists panicked because they would become obsolete, Soviet union panicked, the 'West' panicked. Rule would collapse if this outrageous idea would spread and people would realize their power. So Soviets sent the military to supress the ideas and install more loyal marionettes. The 'West' did nothing to help because they feared these 'harmful' ideas would spread over to them and render them powerless. Therfore, they were relived when the fire was extinguished by the 'bad' Soviets.

Jan Hus and the Catholic Church/Pope was the same thing.

Bohemia is the only place where Hasek and Kafka could happen.

Almost every better household in k&k Vienna had a Bohemian cook. Good food, better beer.
Sadly, this culture gets killed. 40 years of communism and then 30 years of financial looting of the remnants and cultural imports to fill the vacuum destroyed most of it. Praha in the 1990s vs Praha in 2008 vs Praha 2018. It became Disneyworld. At least the buildings are authentic.
Same thing for historic works of art, libraries, etc. Communists let things go to ruins and many remnants got sold in the 1990s.

But not all is bad: Skoda knows to build nuclear power plants and there is progress in Czech pornography and other sorts of debauchery.

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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

Post by Boby » 07 Jan 2022 19:49

wm wrote:
07 Jan 2022 16:41
Hitler's greatest fear was the Germans wouldn't support his wars, or maybe even rebel against them.
The words weren't that stupid.
In The War Path Irving said Hitler backed down because the Royal Navy mobilized.

Other authors (ej. Kershaw) are saying it was because Mussolini's call for a conference.

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wm
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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

Post by wm » 07 Jan 2022 21:02

The problem with that is Goebbels and Weizsäcker were there and Kershaw wasn't.
According to Ribbentrop’s Staatssekretär Ernst von Weizsäcker, it was primarily Goebbels who persuaded Hitler to back off from war at this, the eleventh hour.
Perhaps Hitler even welcomed his moderating influence.
He immediately approved suggestions for a four-power conference to take place in Munich the next day.

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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

Post by Boby » 07 Jan 2022 21:18

Of course Kershaw was using the same sources (Goebbels and Weizsaecker).

Weinberg considered Mussolini's mediation on the 28th the last, decisive factor.

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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 08 Jan 2022 20:55

PunctuationHorror wrote:
07 Jan 2022 16:45
Ah, history of Bohemia.

The place where Czechs, Slovaks, Germans, Magyiars, Poles, Jews, and who else lived together and prospered together for centuries because of this unique mixture - and were looted/leeched by their rulers. ...
The effects of this extend to the US. From 1936 young Mr Flanigan was writing his PhD Thesis on the economic future of the Czech nation, then as he was completing it in March 1939 Hitler ordered the remainder of Bohemia occupied & the Czech state dissolved. That rendered three years of Flannigans research and writing worthless. He told us for him invading Europe and defeating Hilter was personal. A act of vengeance.

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wm
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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

Post by wm » 10 Jan 2022 19:56

Although the Czech state wasn't dissolved.
The Czechs accepted German protection so their government operated as usual - and the entire state apparatus including the army and the police.
They weren't as free as Denmark where free elections happened and free press existed but the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia was a haven in comparison with Eastern Europe.

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