Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

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ljadw
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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#31

Post by ljadw » 17 Feb 2013, 20:15

Well,I disagree :
1)The treaty between France and CZ did not mention any French MILITARY help ,only :aide et assistance,which means nothing
2)As Britain was no ally of CZ,it had no obligations to CZ,and the military help it could give was negligible

3) You should not use what B +F were saying to CZ:it is obvious that this only was bluffing:the fact is that,if there was a war,they would intervene (unwillingly,but,this is unimportant) :if there was a war between Germany and CZ,Britain nor France could look the other way,saying:business as usual.

This is a given :any major war on the continent would result in the intervention/participation of B+F.
And,this was the foundation of the British appeasement policy ,which started in 1919.

ljadw
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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#32

Post by ljadw » 17 Feb 2013, 20:33

If B+F were willing to abandon CZ when it was attacked by Germany,why was France mobilizing on 7 september,why was the Royal Navy mobilized on 26 august ?

I hope that you will not answer that if Germany would attack CZ,Britain and France would demobilize their forces. :roll:


Pavel Novak
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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#33

Post by Pavel Novak » 18 Feb 2013, 00:50

ljadw wrote:Well,I disagree :
...
1) and 2) This just support thesis that Britain and France could abandon Czechoslovakia.
3) Informations from British and French diplomats to Czechoslovak ones were pretty clear - if you refuse our settlement we will not help you in your war against Germany and we will mark you as initiator of war. Czechoslovak leadership believed to this words.

Please let me know about relevant sources in which is said that Britain and France would support Czechoslovakia militarily if she refuse Munich agreement. So far I am not aware of anything like that. (And France mobilizing its forces and then doing nothing is actually pretty plausible.)

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BDV
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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#34

Post by BDV » 18 Feb 2013, 01:11

LJ

Paul posts data and facts, you post interpretations, misdirections, and handwaving.

Yes, the decision for big boys' war will be taken by the big boys. Obviously. Benes' machinations might have been marginally counterproductive. Does not change the fact that Czechoslovakia was ordered to obey or else.
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

ljadw
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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#35

Post by ljadw » 18 Feb 2013, 09:09

No handwaving,no interpretation :the fact is that before Munich,B+F were mobilizing.
In september 1939,there was a war on the continent,and B +F were intervening :this is a fact .
If there was a war on the continent in october 1938,B+F also would intervene:this is obvious,because,the situation was identical .

On 27 september 1938,Chamberlain accepted publicly that war with Germany was inevitable :
I repeat :
he said :
how horrible,fantastic,incredible it is that we should be digging trenches,and trying on gas-masks here,because o fa quarrel in a faraway country between people of whom we dont know nothing .

The message is available on Wiki by googling on :message of Chamberlain on 27 september 1938.

Those,who are refusing this as a proof for the willingness of Britain to fight ,if Germany attacked CZ,are preferring bias to facts.

The claim that CZ was ordered to obey,does not change the fact ,that if Hitler attacked,B+F would not remain idle .

ljadw
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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#36

Post by ljadw » 18 Feb 2013, 09:54

Proofs?

From:the British debate on the Munich agreement:october 1938

Chamberlain (answering to D.Cooper) : In my view,the strongest force of all,......,was the force not of any one individual,but was that unmistikable sense of unanimity among the peoples of the world that war somehow must be averted .

Attlee: We all feel relief that war has not come this time.

Hoare : War has been averted .

It is obvious that no one was talking about a war between CZ and Germany (of which nobody was caring) but about a war between Britain and Germany .

At his return,Chamberlain was hailed by the British public as a hero,as the saviour of peace,because he prevented a war between Britain and Germany .
The conclusion is obvious :
1)If Germany had attacked CZ,this would have resulted in a war between Britain and Germany

2)Chamberlain did not save peace at Munich :peace was saved by the decision of Benesj not to fight to prevent the secession of the SD,and to yield to Hitler's demands .

ljadw
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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#37

Post by ljadw » 18 Feb 2013, 10:24

Proofs?


Message from H.Wilson to Hitler on 27 september 1938:


If Germany attacked Czecoslowakia France would feel that she must fulfil her treaty obligations.....If that meant that the forces of France became actively engaged in hostilities against Germany,THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT WOULD BE OBLIGED TO SUPPORT HER.

Translation in plain English :a German invasion of CZ means war with France and Britain .

Source:British Foreign Policy,third series,II,No.1129.

Mentioned in:The Origins of the Second World War P 226.

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wm
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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#38

Post by wm » 18 Feb 2013, 14:23

It wasn't because of Czechoslovakia. It was the hurt imperial pride as Hitler didn't want to do the proper rape of Czechoslovakia - in a gentlemanly, slowly way as they wanted but in his own fast and brutal Hitlerian way. So the war or no war depended entirely on Hitler at that time.
quarrel in a faraway country between people of whom we dont know nothing
This doesn't look like a good battle cry, does it? Looks rather like a surrender note of a quitter.

Both Britain and France didn't do anything for Ethiopia just two years earlier although it would be much easier to throw Il Duce's bungling Army into the Red Sea than to fight the freshly minted, modern Wehrmacht.

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BDV
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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#39

Post by BDV » 18 Feb 2013, 17:35

LJ,

So I'd like a factual refutation to Paul N's historical fact-backed argument that Czechoslovakia was TOLD to take it like a man, or else.
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

ljadw
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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#40

Post by ljadw » 18 Feb 2013, 18:07

His argument is nullified by the message of Wilson to Hitler, by what after Munich,was said in the Commons,and by the reception of Chamberlain in Britain ,hailed as the man who saved world peace..

All this proves that,if Hitler invaded CZ,there would be a world war .

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BDV
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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#41

Post by BDV » 18 Feb 2013, 19:03

ljadw wrote:His argument is nullified by the message of Wilson to Hitler, by what after Munich, was said in the Commons, and by the reception of Chamberlain in Britain, hailed as the man who saved world peace..
What Wilson? What does this Wilson dude have to do with anything?

All this proves that,if Hitler invaded CZ,there would be a world war .
Invades, when?!?
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

ljadw
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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#42

Post by ljadw » 18 Feb 2013, 19:14

BDV wrote:LJ,

So I'd like a factual refutation to Paul N's historical fact-backed argument that Czechoslovakia was TOLD to take it like a man, or else.
You don't get it ,and,it's that simple :the argument of Paul N is totally irrelevant,unimportant,negligible,of topic,and other such words,because it had no influence on the decision of Benes to yield to Hitler's demands :what France and Britain told (do as you are ordered or else)were only empty words .They threatened CZ to withdraw their support,but,as their support would be meaningless,their menace also was meaningless.

If B+F were given CZ promises of help,and Hitler still attacked CZ,what would be the benefit for CZ? NOTHING. They would stand idle while Hitler was conquering CZ,and then they would start a war of revenge,and,somewhere in 1945,Prague would be liberated,probably by the ...Soviets .
Cz was on its own (it always had been on its own since 1918),surrounded by hostile neighbours(since 1918),and,that's why it yielded to Hitler's demands .

ljadw
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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#43

Post by ljadw » 18 Feb 2013, 19:18

BDV wrote:
ljadw wrote:His argument is nullified by the message of Wilson to Hitler, by what after Munich, was said in the Commons, and by the reception of Chamberlain in Britain, hailed as the man who saved world peace..
What Wilson? What does this Wilson dude have to do with anything?

All this proves that,if Hitler invaded CZ,there would be a world war .
Invades, when?!?
Never heard of Sir Horace Wilson,the alter ego of Chamberlain,his éminence grise,his Kissinger ?

Invades,when ? :irrelevant : a German invasion would result in a B+F DOW (not that it would help CZ in any way

ljadw
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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#44

Post by ljadw » 18 Feb 2013, 19:30

wm wrote:It wasn't because of Czechoslovakia. It was the hurt imperial pride as Hitler didn't want to do the proper rape of Czechoslovakia - in a gentlemanly, slowly way as they wanted but in his own fast and brutal Hitlerian way. So the war or no war depended entirely on Hitler at that time.
quarrel in a faraway country between people of whom we dont know nothing
This doesn't look like a good battle cry, does it? Looks rather like a surrender note of a quitter.

Both Britain and France didn't do anything for Ethiopia just two years earlier although it would be much easier to throw Il Duce's bungling Army into the Red Sea than to fight the freshly minted, modern Wehrmacht.
"quarrel in a faraway country between people of whom we don't know nothing" meant :about whom we don't care.
For Britain (and also for France) it was totally IRRELEVANT if the SD belonged to CZ,or to Germany (it was the same a year later about Danzig):the problem never was the SD(or Danzig) :it was a question of principle ,which was:

could B+F stand idle while Germany was attacking an other country ? The answer was : NO
Adolf could get the whole of eastern europe (no one would care about Poland or CZ),as long this happened without fighting :Halifax told this to Hitler in november 1937.

About Ethiopia:do you really think that in 1935 (when Europe was reigning supreme in Africa) some one would fight ,because a european country invaded an independant black African country ?

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Tim Smith
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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#45

Post by Tim Smith » 19 Feb 2013, 00:12

BDV wrote:In the air, it would be the last big biplane vs biplane battle.
I think the Luftwaffe biplanes were all in the ground-attack or training role by 1 Oct 1938. The Bf 109B, C and D had replaced them in the fighter role.

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