All out war between Germany and Britain after Fall of France

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Marcelo Jenisch
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Re: All out war between Germany and Britain after Fall of Fr

#106

Post by Marcelo Jenisch » 21 Feb 2013, 19:53

ljadw wrote:1)The Soviet deliveries were of minor importance to Germany (5% of the grain,10 % of the oil):after 22 june 1941,the deliveries stopped and Germany did not collapse
Read some previous posts of mine were I posted quotes of The Wages of Destruction.

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Re: All out war between Germany and Britain after Fall of Fr

#107

Post by ljadw » 21 Feb 2013, 20:18

Gooner1 wrote:In commerce a good way to get a habitual debtor to pay up is stop supplying them ...

The Soviet Union was a big producer of Gold. I rather think they had more of it than Germany

:lol:
1) Why was the SU selling grain ? Answer :to earn money ,thus,the amount of gold they had,is irrelevant

2)Why was Germany falling back with its payments ? Unless some one can prove it was intentionally,the obvious answer is :cash problems .
If the SU stopped the deliveries,these cash problems would not disappear.
3)If Germany was not buying the Soviet grain ,no one else would buy it :if your only client is a debtor,you can't do nothing :he has your balls in his hands .
Of course,you can try to put him to bankrupcy,but,what would be your benefit ? A broken client will not buy your products.


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Re: All out war between Germany and Britain after Fall of Fr

#108

Post by Marcelo Jenisch » 21 Feb 2013, 21:38

ljawd, that is part of your view that the Barbarossa idea was a disaster for solve Germany's economic problems?

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BDV
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Re: Airstrips for the B29.

#109

Post by BDV » 21 Feb 2013, 23:19

@Phylo

All good reasons why it was not done in OTL. In ATL if the yanks/limeys need to make a landing strip out of freakin' pontoons they'd do it. They created artificial harbors for their Overlord landing forces, they could build dozen or so concrete airstrips in England.

My previous comments on the Halifax/Churchill dialectic was just pointing out that the british political system had the appropriate tools in place to move in a completely different direction, if the situation in Middle Europe in 1939-1941 would have demanded/warranted it.

P.S. Although ironic that the chief appeaser was dispatched as an emissary to the Washington court of all places, maybe as a gentle reminder to the uppity yankees that the Empyr does have alternatives? :wink:
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

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phylo_roadking
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Re: All out war between Germany and Britain after Fall of Fr

#110

Post by phylo_roadking » 21 Feb 2013, 23:53

All good reasons why it was not done in OTL. In ATL if the yanks/limeys need to make a landing strip out of freakin' pontoons they'd do it. They created artificial harbors for their Overlord landing forces, they could build dozen or so concrete airstrips in England.
..except there's no real advantage in the effort required to fly a smaller number of B-29s...when a slightly larger number of more-easily-hosted (and built) Lancasters could do the job ;) That may sound counter-intuitive...but don't forget Packard was also turning out the motive power, and the Canadians were also building Lancs...and they only reached their full 20,000+ lbs ordnance loadout when LeMay had defensive armament and armour removed ;) The Superfortress was an unnecessary luxury in the ETO.
My previous comments on the Halifax/Churchill dialectic was just pointing out that the british political system had the appropriate tools in place to move in a completely different direction, if the situation in Middle Europe in 1939-1941 would have demanded/warranted it.
Well - it had the mechanism...but the factors and pressures mitigated AGAINST any change, far more than were ever working in favour of one ;) if you can ever find a copy of it...very obscure now...see Laurence Thompson's "1940"; he was the Telegraph's parliamentary correspondent for literally decades; he was on first-name terms with the vast majority of ALL the major players in May 1940 on ALL sides of the House, had full access to Hansard and the Commons Library - not common in a pre-Internet age - and was given priviledged access to a number of then-living politicians' diaries. It opened MY eyes about the circumstances of Churchill's coming to power...
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Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

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Re: All out war between Germany and Britain after Fall of Fr

#111

Post by Marcelo Jenisch » 21 Feb 2013, 23:55

Phylo, the problem is: more Lancasters would be needed. Do you think that the Americans could have built them under license for the RAF? I do think so, the campanies want to profit. :P

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Re: All out war between Germany and Britain after Fall of Fr

#112

Post by ljadw » 21 Feb 2013, 23:56

Marcelo Jenisch wrote:ljawd, that is part of your view that the Barbarossa idea was a disaster for solve Germany's economic problems?
No,Barbarossa did not solve Germany's economiv problems,it only was aggravating them

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Re: All out war between Germany and Britain after Fall of Fr

#113

Post by Marcelo Jenisch » 22 Feb 2013, 00:01

phylo_roadking wrote:
Do you people think that Britain and the Commonwealth (supported by the US) would have a good chance of invade Norway? If sucessfull, such invasion would give a tremendous blow to the Germans without the need of confront much of the Heer.
Yes it could; the secret to a "peripheral" policy is bringing local garrisons/occupation forces to battle and defeating them, thus securing a lodgement...before adequate forces can be brought to bear. There's a long WI (several actually!) that discuss in some detail the chances of liberating and holding a Northern Norway enclave again.
There was also the Balkans, which Churchill preffered to invade instead of Normandy. By liberating certain places, perhaps the countries could be willing to cooperate in the war against Germany if they obtain some advantages.
Last edited by Marcelo Jenisch on 22 Feb 2013, 00:04, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: All out war between Germany and Britain after Fall of Fr

#114

Post by Marcelo Jenisch » 22 Feb 2013, 00:02

ljadw wrote:
Marcelo Jenisch wrote:ljawd, that is part of your view that the Barbarossa idea was a disaster for solve Germany's economic problems?
No,Barbarossa did not solve Germany's economiv problems,it only was aggravating them
Yes. I wanted to mean that. I already read previous post of yours were you say that even if Barbarossa was sucessfull, Germany supposedely would not have much economical benefit. This view contradicts many authors however, including Tooze.

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Re: All out war between Germany and Britain after Fall of Fr

#115

Post by phylo_roadking » 22 Feb 2013, 00:11

Phylo, the problem is: more Lancasters would be needed.
No, they actually weren't - by the end of the war Bomber Command had an overabundance of four-engined heavies in service - over 3,500. They had more than enough to deal with operational rotation, servicing/maintenance, combat loss etc.. And it had become a rather inflexible tool, almost being kept for big raids of a certain size and above...apart from specialists like 617 Sqn; that's why the "medium" bombers of the FNSF became more "useful"...
Do you think that the Americans could have built them under license for the RAF? I do think so, the campanies want to profit.
No; from the very start of the war, American companies refused to do this, preferring to build their own product, if however to British specs/requirements (see under "Mustang" ;)) They did the same with tanks.
There was also the Balkans, which Churchill preffered to invade instead of Normandy. By liberating certain places, perhaps the countries could be willing to cooperate in the war against Germany if they obtain some advantages
....only once events opened up the possibility - the Italian invasion of Greece opening up a potential German ally (and rather fascist state with a LOT of pro-German sympathies in the Greek Army) to becoming a British ally ;), the change of government in Yugoslavia etc., etc...
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Re: All out war between Germany and Britain after Fall of Fr

#116

Post by Marcelo Jenisch » 22 Feb 2013, 00:16

Phylo, we are talking about a scenario were the LW does not have to fight in Russia, and were the Americans are not present. The LW night-fighter force would be, by logic, much stronger in this scenario. Unless that Britain also employ a daylight bombing campaign. But I think the British would only do this after they had the Mustang or any other long range escort fighter.

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Re: All out war between Germany and Britain after Fall of Fr

#117

Post by phylo_roadking » 22 Feb 2013, 00:29

The LW night-fighter force would be, by logic, much stronger in this scenario.
Marcelo - I suggest you go and do some research on the actual limitations on the German nightfighter force imposed by the format of the fixed "Kammhuber Line" approach to defending Germany from night raids.

No BARBAROSSA doesn't actually free up much at all in the way of nightfighter resources - just more day fighters :P There were major difficulties in handling extra fighters inside each "Kammhuber Box", each needed its dedicated ground controller, and it ALSO meant a steadily increasing number of radar sets the length of Europe.

The Germans bought into the Kammhuber Line idea very quickly - but once in place they were pretty much locked into it...because they had no viable alternative...and "thickening" the Line by adding more rows of "boxes" only increased the command and control issues.

Bomber Command in turn developed tactics like the Bomber Stream that meant a defined number of aircraft passed through a certain number of "boxes" on the map in a given duration...permitting the orbiting fighters just SO many GCI'd interceptions on a given sortie :wink: In other words - there were just SO many bombers a nightfighter could chase down and attempt to attack...and the British could simply overwhelm them.

They worked up their tactics and numbers until they could handle an acceptable number of losses per night raid :P And the LW couldn't physically carry out any more!
Unless that Britain also employ a daylight bombing campaign.
They did; not only did the Heavy Force provide Stirlings etc. in 1941 as part of "circus" raids in daylight on targets in France to draw up LW fighters...throughout the war the RAF's medium forces carried out a daylight campaign.
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Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

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Re: All out war between Germany and Britain after Fall of Fr

#118

Post by Marcelo Jenisch » 22 Feb 2013, 00:44

phylo_roadking wrote:throughout the war the RAF's medium forces carried out a daylight campaign.
In this case, the Americans planes would certainly be useful. If the LW could bomb Britain with medium bombers, I guess that Britain also could bomb not Germany, but at least France and the low countries with medium bombers as well, together with fighter escort (but in greater numbers than historically here). While the Lancasters would attack the priority targets in Germany itself.

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Re: All out war between Germany and Britain after Fall of Fr

#119

Post by phylo_roadking » 22 Feb 2013, 01:34

In this case, the Americans planes would certainly be useful. If the LW could bomb Britain with medium bombers, I guess that Britain also could bomb not Germany, but at least France and the low countries with medium bombers as well, together with fighter escort (but in greater numbers than historically here). While the Lancasters would attack the priority targets in Germany itself.
Marcelo, I could be smart here, but instead -

1/ "In this case, the Americans planes would certainly be useful." No more than OTL - for they DID use them amongst others!

2/ "If the LW could bomb Britain with medium bombers, I guess that Britain also could bomb not Germany, but at least France and the low countries with medium bombers as well" - even in 1940, RAF Blenheims were reaching the Dortmund-Ems Canal in Western Germany by day...! (A little-known and long-forgotten factlet...)

3/ "together with fighter escort (but in greater numbers than historically here)" - In greater numbers isn't actually necessary - depending on the aircraft ;) One of the major advantages of the DH Mosquito bomber variants for instance being their speed!
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

Marcelo Jenisch
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Re: All out war between Germany and Britain after Fall of Fr

#120

Post by Marcelo Jenisch » 22 Feb 2013, 06:34

Phylo,

It would depend, at least in part, of the strategy the British Empire would use. Churchill was against the policy of unconditional surrender. How do you think the war would develop from the British perspective? The British would fight Hitler until he accepted to get out of France, Poland (geez, there would be the USSR here as well), and other occupied territories?

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