Americans under Nazi occupation

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STALAGl3
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Americans under Nazi occupation

Post by STALAGl3 » 11 Apr 2003 20:55

As we all know the Nazis were racialists and treated every occupied nation according to their race. And America is a 'melting pot'.What would happen to the Americans if they were under Nazi occupation? The Nazis would have killed the Jews, probably the Aficans, Asians, and Latinos as well. Since Germany treated all Europeans differently,how do you think they would they treat European Americans who could be of every European nationality or at least multiple ones? What would the fate be for America?

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davethelight
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Post by davethelight » 12 Apr 2003 01:28

Well, its a pretty unfeasible scenario, but just to play along, I do not think they would treat the Americans any differently to any of the other countries they occupied. They would have applied the same policies of terror, opression, genocide and enslavement that they applied everywhere else that they occupied.

James McBride
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Post by James McBride » 12 Apr 2003 01:34

The majority of Americans are of British and Germany ancestry, I would say. Though there are some people of Slavic ancestry, I think that it much less common. So I think it would mostly be a purge of all non-whites and Jews and those obviously Slavic in Hitler's opinion. As well as political dissenters of course. Does anyone have a list or something with all nationalities Hitler found acceptable? I know that I am fine, as I am English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish on one side, and Danish, German, and English on the other. As far as I know, Hitler consider those on the British Isles to be Aryan, slightly inferior for some reason but Aryan all the same. Correct me if I am wrong.

James

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Gen. Erwin Rommel
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Post by Gen. Erwin Rommel » 12 Apr 2003 11:07

About races, and the aryan race story and so on, what hitler tougth about the Mediteranian people or latin people, the portuguese and the spanish in particular? to him they were so inferior like the jews or the Slavs or they were good but not so good as the germans?

Den Bosch Scherpschieter
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Post by Den Bosch Scherpschieter » 13 Apr 2003 18:43

The Germans wouldn't have lasted long. You think we're a nation of gun toting psycho's now....back in those days firearms were much more tolerated.

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ckleisch
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Post by ckleisch » 14 Apr 2003 20:23

Den Bosch Scherpschieter wrote:The Germans wouldn't have lasted long. You think we're a nation of gun toting psycho's now....back in those days firearms were much more tolerated.
Fully agree with above the germans would have to deal with a population of 250 million citizens all who in some form have firearms. Quislings would be around but their life expectancy would be nihl. Talk about a resistance movement. Dont, think the germans could handle Spanish-Harlem, Southern rednecks, Bronx personages and Tennessee farm boys on their home turf. Talk about body bags going back to Germany.
it would take the whole german Army to garrison the country. LOL would take their whole army to garrison New York.

Cali-kid
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Post by Cali-kid » 15 Apr 2003 09:19

Well, being non aryan myself I cringe at the thought. What camp would the nazi's put me on (i'm brown)...with the jews or a camp with blacks, yellows, reds etc...?

America's european nationality? The ones that are unwilling to adopt their rule (nazi's) would be killed I reckon.

America's fate? A nation "speaking German".

GCarty
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How could the Nazis conquer America?

Post by GCarty » 15 Apr 2003 11:12

There's no way that the Nazis could have conquered America in WWII - America is just too big, and the Third Reich is a continental power, not a naval power (the latter factor is what made Sealion impossible).

I imagine that after the defeat of the Soviet Union the Third Reich would have to consolidate over decades before it would be strong enough to launch a transatlantic invasion or a nuclear attack. Any thoughts on a plausible Nazi world conquest scenario?

Could parallels be drawn with SM Stirling's Draka series - based on a African evil empire which eventually conquers the world?

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Stuart S
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Post by Stuart S » 16 Apr 2003 11:59

A German occupation of the USA is a thoroughly implausible scenario. But suspending disbelief in the best alternative reality fashion, let's accept that the bulk America's armed forces had been defeated somehow and the USA was vulnerable to invasion. I agree that the population's ready access to small arms would have proved a major headache to any occupying force. Moreover, until the whole country had been totally subdued there would still be enough manpower and materiel available for the citizenry to build a fairly effective and well-equipped new army in unoccupied areas.

I think a smart Hitler would not have attempted to occupy the entire country all at once, or all by himself. Coastal and border areas would have to be dealt with first, to prevent aid from outside reaching American partisans and to ensure that any remaining US forces were faced with a war on four fronts. Hitler would have shared this onerous task with his allies. The nature of the war would mean that he would not have sought to, or indeed been able to, pursue traditional Nazi policies everywhere. In all the war zones, the social/racial policies each allied invader pursued would depend upon that country's own domestic policies and upon it's success in the field.

The UK must have already been defeated. In this scenario the Empire has fallen into line with the mother country, so Commonwealth forces would move south from Canada to annex northern states from Michigan to Montana and much of New England. How non-Aryans were treated in the "British zone" would depend upon the nature of the puppet state in London, but since the Empire and its army was multi-racial I suspect that African- and Asian-Americans at least would have had little to fear.

The Japanese would have been given the task of pacifying the west coast, of course. Their rule would have been universally cruel and uncompromising, without any regard for racial preferences. If they managed to subdue resistance, they would have used the entire population in their zone as slave labour (and conscripted Japanese Americans).

In this alternative reality Spain has joined the Axis and has invaded, or sponsored a Fascist coup in, Mexico. Spanish and Mexican troops would be given the unenviable task of trying to seize Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. They wouldn't have much spare time for promoting Franco-ism, but although they would obviously favour any Hispanics they came across I don't think they would be interested in persecuting Jews or non-Hispanics.

Hitler would keep the comparatively small, but densely populated and heavily industrialised west coast from New York to, say, Virginia for Germany and her main allies, Italy and Romania. German forces, though maybe not the allies, would almost certainly start off attempting to eliminate Jews and non-Whites. However, given the situation it would be relatively easy for potential victims to escape to the unoccupied hinterland. In view of the large number and confusing variety of ethnicities, the Germans might also conclude that their energies would be better spent in dealing with partisans than trying to work out who was racially acceptable. For reasons I'll explain later, I think they might actually adopt a cynical but more pragmatic approach to African-Americans.

The pacify the unoccupied centre of the USA Hitler would have exploited potential divisions within and between the states and ethnic/religious communities. He had a soft spot for Red Indians (the PC name escapes me) in his childhood, so he would arm militant braves and let them try to carve out a mini-nation for themselves in the mid-west. Internal divisions, shortage of manpower and simply being outnumbered by armed citizens means they couldn't succeed, but they could certainly cause havoc for a while. Whether they liked it or not, Hitler would insist that the Mormons establish their own independent state in Utah. He'd find enough collaborators to make the idea work for a while.

I think that if the rest of the country was in such turmoil, many of the old Confederate States would have jumped at independence and a chance to avoid the war. A rump of ex-CSA states would be given puppet nationhood. Since only pro-secessionists would be in charge, it is likely that CSA-style racial policies would predominate. I suspect that a devious Hitler might further muddy the waters and award one chosen state to African-Americans. This would keep the CSA busy suppressing rebellion and trying to staunch a mass exodus of its labour force.

Hitler would be hoping that while most of America's remaining armed forces were locked in combat with British, Spanish, German and Japanese armies at the edges, civil war would break out in the centre. When the northern border and east coast were more or less pacified, the tanks would roll into the mid-west to assert control over the smoking ruins. A thoroughly subdued North American Territory (no longer the United States, remember?) would be permanently carved up between the victorious invaders. A bit like the scramble for Africa.

It's been a slack day at the office today.

GCarty
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Canada

Post by GCarty » 17 Apr 2003 12:21

Stuart S wrote:The UK must have already been defeated. In this scenario the Empire has fallen into line with the mother country, so Commonwealth forces would move south from Canada to annex northern states from Michigan to Montana and much of New England. How non-Aryans were treated in the "British zone" would depend upon the nature of the puppet state in London, but since the Empire and its army was multi-racial I suspect that African- and Asian-Americans at least would have had little to fear.
I would have expected Canada to be the home of a Free British government though if Britain itself fell - and wouldn't the USA annex Canada if it looked likely to fall into Nazi hands?

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Stuart S
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Post by Stuart S » 17 Apr 2003 13:39

Maybe. But I think it would depend upon when these events took place and what kind of regime was in London. If Britain had fallen early on, the Americans might simply accept Europe's fate; I don't think there would be any political will to liberate the Old World and in any case it would be logistically impossible to do so. That being the case, the Americans might seek to co-exist with a Fascist Canada, and indeed Nazi Germany, rather than provoke the collective wrath of the global Axis alliance.

Accepting your twist on the scenario, though, I don't see how the Germans could get a foothold. An "over-the-top" Arctic invasion wouldn't work and there would simply be too much free territory to make a three-sided invasion successful.

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Post by FL Jim » 17 Apr 2003 14:13

Of course, a German occupation of the US was logistically and realistically out of the question, but as others have done, I'll play along.

Remember that in the 1940s before any real civil rights movement, Hispanic-Americans, African-Americans, and most minorities were far less integrated into American society and faced much more severe discrimination than they do today. In the American southwest, most Mexican immigrants and their families were working at menial farm labor jobs, and in Los Angeles lived in ghettoes and faced constant hostility from the police. In the South, segregation and Jim Crow laws were still in full force. Minorities provided an important source of farm and industrial labor that any Nazi administration would most likely not touch. Indeed, Nazis would have added an extra touch of brutality. With Hispanics and African-American forming a much larger proportion of the American population than Jews, Gypsies etc in Europe, keeping and strengthening existing segregation policies would have been more practical than trying to root out all "non-Aryans" from the American population.

Insofar as the white population in the US was concerned, to impose a hierarchy of "Aryanism" would probably even cause the Nazi leadership to rol, their eyes up in their heads. The American population is just too mixed up. Those Scottish-Celtic Appalachian folk in West Virginia almost all admit to having some Indian ancestors. A good number of the Southern Whites who supported segregation now and forever have a slave ancestor or two. In the Northeast cities, Irish, Italians, Germans, and Swedes intermarry in spite of definite ethnic neighborhoods. Undoubtedly, the Nazis would have gone after the Jewish population since that was a cornerstone of Naziism. Nevertheless, there would have been far more idealistic Americans running out into the streets to scream and yell against any round-up in spite of the machine guns than the Nazis would have faced anywhere else.

Of course, trying to occupy a nation of gun totin', individualistic, capitalistic, freedom-loving, idealistic Americans would have been the biggest headache the Nazis ever faced.

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Robert Rojas
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RE: Americans under Nazi "occupation".

Post by Robert Rojas » 17 Apr 2003 15:14

Greetings to both brother Stalag 13 and the community as a whole. In reference to your WHAT IF scenario of Friday - April 11, 2003 - 8:55am, I tend to gravitate to the points-of-view of brothers Den Bosch Scherpschieter (Sunday - April 13, 2003 - 6:43pm), Ckleisch (Monday - April 14, 2003 - 8:23pm) and FL Jim (Thursday - April 17, 2003 - 2:13pm). My sentiments on this particular subject are expressed under the thread entitled as GERMANY VERSUS U.S.A. - ONE ON ONE located on the adjacent POLLS section of the forum. The entry in question is dated Sunday - April 13, 2003 - 5:32am. Yes, we Yankees (and Johnny Rebs too) are a people both numerous and armed. Incidentally, I am also having a difficult time envisioning our country cousins up in the GREAT WHITE NORTH of Canada ever rolling over and playing dead to a Nazi occupation either. It's just some food for thought, EH!? Well, that's my two cents worth on the subject. In anycase, I would like to bid you a wonderful day in the Empire State of New York.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :)
Last edited by Robert Rojas on 18 Apr 2003 05:55, edited 2 times in total.

Lars EP
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Post by Lars EP » 17 Apr 2003 15:16

There is an interesting little novel about the subject:

"The Man in the High Castle" by good old Philip K. Dick.

Eastern U.S. is occupied by Germany, Western U.S. by Japan. Setting around 1970. As most of Philip K Dick's works, well worth a read.

Regards --- Lars

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PanzerKing
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Post by PanzerKing » 17 Apr 2003 22:25

I believe that when Japan's emporer was asked during WW2 if they would invade the mainland U.S. he said something like "it would be out of the question, as there would be a gun behind every blade of grass".

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