Battle of Britain

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LWD
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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by LWD » 07 Sep 2010 13:03

woden wrote:
LWD wrote:Not at all likely at that point. The combined air forces and navies of Britain and the US would have meant he proably wouldn't even have been able to assemble such a force.
You are correct, actually, and if he tried then that would be most unwise. With only a fraction of the resources he could have eventually taken enough Mediterranean possessions to exchange them for a peace
Hardly. He might however have prolonged things enough to insure that major German cities didn't nead street lights for the foreseeable future.

woden
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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by woden » 07 Sep 2010 21:24

Does that mean he couldn't have negotiated a peace with Britain?

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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by phylo_roadking » 07 Sep 2010 21:42

With only a fraction of the resources he could have eventually taken enough Mediterranean possessions to exchange them for a peace
Certainly not in a BoB timeframe...given that the FJ, the transportverband's fleet of Ju52s, and the Kriegsmarine were all A/ heavily damaged B/understrength for various reasons and in the case of the KM C/ screwed by Norway.

See any of the Sealion threads dealing with German amphibious strength/capability in this timeframe.
Does that mean he couldn't have negotiated a peace with Britain?
As above, see the Sealion threads. To paraphrase - he spent six weeks from the Armistice from France "trying" to "negotiate" - he...

A/ did it badly I.E. in ways that were not interpreted/interpretable as offers to negotiate, and

B/ The British sent him away with a flea in his ear! :lol:
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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by sallyg » 07 Sep 2010 21:47

woden wrote:Does that mean he couldn't have negotiated a peace with Britain?
It takes two to tango.

A question perhaps more "on point" might be "by that point, why would Britain even come to the table".

Certainly the experiments off the European mainland did not generally fare well. Norway chewwed up the KM, Cyprus the Fallschmirmjager. They do come to mind

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LWD
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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by LWD » 07 Sep 2010 22:52

Well if he were willing to pull out of Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Noway, and France (excepting perhaps the disputed areas) and made the offer before the BOB he would at least have gotten the ear of some in Britain.

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by phylo_roadking » 07 Sep 2010 22:56

Well if he were willing to pull out of Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Noway, and France (excepting perhaps the disputed areas)
Well, that's hardly what he put on the table in his Reichstag speech! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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LWD
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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by LWD » 07 Sep 2010 23:01

I'm not sure it would have been safe to put that on the table in the Reichstag. On the otherhand like I said he would probably have gotten Churchill's interest. Of course given his track record I suspect he would have also gotten more than a bit of suspicion as well.

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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by phylo_roadking » 07 Sep 2010 23:06

The problem to all of that was - of course - the Czech example had finally and irrevocably proved that Hitler's word couldn't be trusted...especially when it came to diplomatic agrements! :lol: :P You don't negotiate with a proven liar - his coin is worthless, no matter what the face value.
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Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

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LWD
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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by LWD » 07 Sep 2010 23:09

Well if he agreed to pull out as the first step. I'm sure Churchill and company could have come up with a plan that would work as far as he's concnerned and they wouldn't be in any worse shape if he reniged. On the other hand you've got about as much chance of getting a snoball into the center of the sun as Hitler even thinking about the first part much less agreeing to the second.

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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by phylo_roadking » 07 Sep 2010 23:15

Well if he agreed to pull out as the first step. I'm sure Churchill and company could have come up with a plan that would work as far as he's concnerned and they wouldn't be in any worse shape if he reniged. On the other hand you've got about as much chance of getting a snoball into the center of the sun as Hitler even thinking about the first part much less agreeing to the second
Well, given that his "offer" was that Britain could have her Empire IF we left Europe to him.... 8O

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by Polynikes » 17 Apr 2011 21:49

phylo_roadking wrote:Well, given that his "offer" was that Britain could have her Empire IF we left Europe to him.... 8O

:lol: :lol: :lol:
It didn't matter what the offer was...

Maybe if Hitler had agreed to stand down from power... dissolve the Nazi party...withdraw to the Sept 1939 borders...


Now you have a basis for negotiation.

Churchill might have accepted that.

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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by phylo_roadking » 17 Apr 2011 21:53

It didn't matter what the offer was...
Of course it does - we KNOW what he offered....and we also know how many times in 1940 it was rejected out of hand by Churchill.

We ALSO happen to know in detail the discussions held in the War Cabinet during DYNAMO at the end of May/start of June 1940 regarding the Italian offer to facilitate talks - and from those discussions we know what Churchill regarded as too great a price to pay for peace, and what his fears for a negotiated peace with Germany were.
Maybe if Hitler had agreed to stand down from power... dissolve the Nazi party...withdraw to the Sept 1939 borders...

Now you have a basis for negotiation.
Why on earth would the victor of Europe offer that??? He'd won...
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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by Polynikes » 23 Apr 2011 00:02

phylo_roadking wrote:Of course it does - we KNOW what he offered....and we also know how many times in 1940 it was rejected out of hand by Churchill.
Entirely my point.

There was NO offer that Hitler could make (given the nature of the man) that Churchill would ever accept.

To illustrate this I proposed the basic MINIMUM Churchill might have accepted...

Why on earth would the victor of Europe offer that??? He'd won...
Absolutely NO reason at all.

QED. Given the situation I reiterate; it didn't matter what the offer was. There was no way Churchill would accept it because the ONLY terms he might have accepted would have been impossible for Hitler to offer.

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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by Dunserving » 13 Jul 2011 20:11

The 71st anniversary of the start of the Battle of Britain was marked a few days ago at the BoB Memorial near Folkestone, by wreath laying and a thrilling flying display by a Spitfire, Hurricane, and a Ju52.

I visited the memorial this afternoon:

Image

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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by Marcus » 13 Oct 2011 20:20

An uncivil exchange between ljadw and red devil that was dragging the thread off track was removed.

/Marcus

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