Battle of Britain

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Marcus
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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by Marcus » 13 Oct 2011 20:38

A post containing personal remarks about another members was removed.

/Marcus

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Andy H
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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by Andy H » 31 Oct 2011 16:57

Basil Colliers The Defence of the United Kingdom, part of the Official Government Historical series is now available via the great folks at Hyperwar.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/U ... index.html

Regards

Andy H

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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by KEVKEV » 05 Jan 2012 20:57

The official wargame played by German and British military colleges.......... invading in September with all the details, weather, leaderships, logistics etc, confirmed that German forces would have been able to gain some ground and move inland as far as Ashford within a week, but due to fuel shortages from bad weather, poor harbour facilities, the Royal Navy, RAF and British Army reserves.......... the Germans would have lost by the end of week 2.

This war game was the subject of a BBC History programe which also involved certain former German and British commanders actually involved in Sea Lion and UK home defence.

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LWD
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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by LWD » 05 Jan 2012 21:21

KEVKEV wrote:The official wargame played by German and British military colleges.......... invading in September with all the details, weather, leaderships, logistics etc, confirmed that German forces would have been able to gain some ground and move inland as far as Ashford within a week, ....
Actually in confirmed nothing of the sort. Assumptions were made that allowed for the successful landing and subsequent support for several days that were highly questionable. For instance it was assumed that the RN had minimal impact on the invasion fleet. There are a fair number of threads that go into SeaLion on this board and indeed there is considerable amount of material on it in this thread. Very little supports the Germans managing to get even a toe hold on Britain that lasts for more than a day or two.

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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by KEVKEV » 06 Jan 2012 08:10

Further to Operation Sealion and if Germany would have been successful or not.......................... obtained from the military archives at Sandhurst. This was again looked into recently by NATO commanders with the same results.

Post-war wargaming of the plan. In the wargame conducted at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst in 1974, which assumed the Luftwaffe had not yet won air supremacy, the Germans were able to establish a beachhead in England by using a minefield screen in the English Channel to protect the initial assault. However, the German ground forces were delayed at the "Stop Lines" (e.g. the GHQ Line), a layered series of defensive positions that had been built, each a combination of Home Guard troops and physical barriers. At the same time, the regular troops of the British Army were forming up. After only a few days, the Royal Navy was able to reach the Channel from Scapa Flow, cutting off supplies and blocking further reinforcement. Isolated and facing regular troops with armour and artillery, the invasion force was forced to surrender.[62]

"The panel of umpires included Adolf Galland, Admiral Friedrich Ruge, Air Chief Marshal Sir Christopher Foxley-Norris, Rear Admiral Edward Gueritz, General Heinz Trettner and Major General Glyn Gilbert"

With so many Royal Navy ships approaching from both directions of the Channel, and proved at Dunkirk that not all ships would be sunk through airpower, and Royal Navy orders to be strictly followed to attack barges and supply ships, not warships, land forces that landed in the UK would not have been supplied effectively. Even allowing for weather conditions, which turned out would have made an impact later.

It still would have reamined that Germany would still retain its conquered territories as the UK would have been unable to invade Europe and Gemany still had resources to prevent this. The Germans then, as Britain would not have agreed to any peace dealings but still fight on would highly likely to have concentrated on Africa and Middle East rather than Russia ?. Another outcome ?.

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Baltasar
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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by Baltasar » 06 Jan 2012 10:54

When copying and posting from sources, it might be useful to mark such parts and tell others where you found, especially when using wikipedia as a source.

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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by David Thompson » 06 Jan 2012 22:25

KEVKEV --
When quoting from a book or site, please provide info on the source (and a link if it is a website)
Forum Guidelines and Instructions
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6

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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by phylo_roadking » 06 Jan 2012 22:39

Post-war wargaming of the plan. In the wargame conducted at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst in 1974, which assumed the Luftwaffe had not yet won air supremacy, the Germans were able to establish a beachhead in England by using a minefield screen in the English Channel to protect the initial assault. However, the German ground forces were delayed at the "Stop Lines" (e.g. the GHQ Line), a layered series of defensive positions that had been built, each a combination of Home Guard troops and physical barriers. At the same time, the regular troops of the British Army were forming up. After only a few days, the Royal Navy was able to reach the Channel from Scapa Flow, cutting off supplies and blocking further reinforcement. Isolated and facing regular troops with armour and artillery, the invasion force was forced to surrender.[62]
Unfortunately - in this aspect, the game was fatally flawed...

It was NEVER Adm. Forbes intention for Home Fleet to come any further south than Great Yarmouth; he even forbade any vessels under his command exercising/drilling indirect support fire with the Army! 8O

Putting Home Fleet's capital ships in the Narrows IS highly problematic; the Narrows is exactly that, it's fraught with sandbars and shallows outisde the marked shipping channels. It would also require the length of the Narrows to be cleared of mines, they wouldn't have the advantages of the RN's coastal forces or the Auxiliary patrol in being able to operate INSIDE friendly or German minefields. Then there's the issue of turning circles for capital ships at flank....remember, half the width of the Channel would be under the guns of the gathered German heavy artillery on the French coast.
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bf109 emil
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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by bf109 emil » 07 Jan 2012 00:00

It was NEVER Adm. Forbes intention for Home Fleet to come any further south than Great Yarmouth; he even forbade any vessels under his command exercising/drilling indirect support fire with the Army!
true...but what if ordered to do so by someone smoking a cigar and sipping brandy to do so :wink:
the Germans were able to establish a beachhead in England
there is a lot of debate as to an invasion...but sure i will bite as IMHO if Germany had launched her forces and ships, sure they might have established a beachhead...then what?? IIRC the Luftwaffe flew only 3 sorties over the beaches on D-day...I'm thinking with the aircraft available from Bomber command, coastal command and the remaining RAF fighters might have made holding the beachhead a formidable task...and more so it was not D-day which proved a successful invasion, but the next month of being able to successfully land supplies and armor which made an invasion work...something the Wehrmacht lacked and perhaps the 200,000 plus troops evacuated from Dunkirk might have had time to find rifles and machine guns, and AA weapons used to defend London towed to combat a lacking amphibious Wehrmacht force...IMHO i don't think Hitler was bound to place a feather in Churchill's cap this easily and admit his first defeat so readily 8O

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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by phylo_roadking » 07 Jan 2012 00:08

but what if ordered to do so by someone smoking a cigar and sipping brandy to do so
Given that he'd been First Lord of The Admiralty for eight months including the Norway debacle - Winston would have been only too aware of the Fleet's limitations :wink:
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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by phylo_roadking » 07 Jan 2012 00:20

I'm thinking with the aircraft available from Bomber command, coastal command and the remaining RAF fighters might have made holding the beachhead a formidable task...
Here's the awkward bit.

1/ Bomber Command....had lost, what , over half of its medium and light bombers in France; only seven could be spared in the anti-invasion plans to be given over to the Army's command in the event of invasion - and THEY were out night and day bargebusting and raiding the French coast over the summer months, they were exhausted.

The Heavy Force - was only a few squadrons of Wellingtons. Hampdens, And Whitleys...and 1939 had demonstrated THEIR daylight abilities...!

2/ for the invasion to take place - Eleven Group would by definition have been eliminated or so weakened it had been forced to withdraw; this leaves only Twelve Group to combat ALL the Luftwaffe's operation in the event of an invasion - medium bombers' and Stukas' tactical bombing and CAS roles, Luftwaffe fighter sweeps, fighter escort on the bomber sorties...as well as the escort roles slated for them - escorting RAF bombers, and escorting the BANQUET raids on the beaches.

Ten Group to the south-west was relatively weak - only four Spitfire and five Hurricane squadrons to add to the defence. Thirteen Group was in better shape - three Spitfire but nine Hurricane squadrons; the problem is, of course - how many of these can be spared to the east...and how many retained for Group area defence?

Coastal Command would have been next to useless for the defence in 1940, although they might have played a part in BANQUET. It was a motely fleet of assorted flying boats, some of them ancient...and borrowed Ansons and Oxford from Bomber Command's training schools; certainly these latter would have been mobilised for BANQUET.

One thing I DON'T have a listing of yet, nor have never seen one - can anyone help? - is a full "summer 1940" listing for Fleet Air Arm shore-based suqadrons in the UK....
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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by bf109 emil » 07 Jan 2012 00:45

Given that he'd been First Lord of The Admiralty for eight months including the Norway debacle - Winston would have been only too aware of the Fleet's limitations
of course, but if so ordered, Adm. Forbes would have been more then willing to comply IMHO :roll:

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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by LWD » 07 Jan 2012 00:58

Would they have been needed though? Since the largest combatants the Germans planned on accompanying the invasion fleet were DDs (and only a handful of those) I would think light cruisers, destroyers, and other light craft would have been more than adequate as they proved off Crete. I believe in previous discussions it's been mentioned that the Germans lacked the mines to establish the fields they planned on and if they had the mines they didnt have the mine layers.

But we've said this all before, a lot of it on this thread I believe....

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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by bf109 emil » 07 Jan 2012 01:05

LWD wrote:Would they have been needed though? Since the largest combatants the Germans planned on accompanying the invasion fleet were DDs (and only a handful of those) I would think light cruisers, destroyers, and other light craft would have been more than adequate as they proved off Crete. I believe in previous discussions it's been mentioned that the Germans lacked the mines to establish the fields they planned on and if they had the mines they didnt have the mine layers.

But we've said this all before, a lot of it on this thread I believe....
agreed and debated numerous times...no they most likely wouldn't have been needed, but if so, my only point was Adm. Forbes disagreeing or refusing might not have come to roost and perhaps another higher up would have and could have ordered the capital ships to embark noted

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Re: Battle of Britain

Post by phylo_roadking » 07 Jan 2012 01:16

of course, but if so ordered, Adm. Forbes would have been more then willing to comply IMHO
You need to read Brian Lavery's "We Shall Fight On The Beaches" - I don't think it's that simple; Forbes was Britain''s equivalent of Darlan, once his viable role was fulfilled he'd have removed the Home Fleet to Gibraltar to await events...then depending on what happened, off to Canada - where as we know the lcoals were coming under severe covert diplomatic pressure by FDR in that event to either beach the RN or turn it over to the Americans.

In the meantime - Home Fleet's role was to clear the KM out of the North Sea; it wasn't their problem that the reason the KM was out of sight in the Baltic wasn't that it was being readied for the invasion - but WAS in fact undergoing serious repairs after Norway!

Given the limits that geography etc. imposed on Home Fleet's usfulness - after the KM's very limited sortie into the North Sea to distract the RN was dealt with, probably the best way it could be used was to bombard North German port roads', and Dutch and possibly Belgian ports being used for the invasion supply bridge. But even this woul be problematic, as many of the latter were "screened" by Channel bars and shallows, such as those off Dunkirk that limited the British' evacuation options to just three sea routes.
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