Battle of Britain

[David Brown]

We agree that air supremacy, or at least air superiority, would be a pre-requirement for a German invasion. However, I can´t see how the Germans would have gained that, even if they had continued to attack R.A.F. airfields.

Hello again Yngwie J.

It had to be supremacy or nothing as far as I am aware. The purpose of attacking the airfields, apart from destroying the fighters, was to ensure that whatever aircraft the Royal Air Force had available could not get off the ground, therefore leaving them as sitting ducks for the incoming Luftwaffe.

Any Royal Air Force fighters in the north would have been moved to the south coast as the R.A.F. losses mounted, this would have opened the back door along the north east coast where they had previously been on the receiving end of a battering.

Acting on dodgy intelligence, on the 15th August 1940, 65 Heinkel He111's and 34 Bf110 from Luftflotte 5 took off the air fields of occupied Norway and Denmark in the hope that they would be able to smash the R.A.F. airfields in the north. They were greeted by the Spitfires 72 Squadron and the inevitable happened. Most of the Luftwaffe bombers jettisoned their additional fuel tanks and turned around. The Bf110's, which were supposed to be the bombers escort actually flew from Norway without their rear gunner in place because of a weight penalty that meant their fuel would have been used up before reaching Britain.

I have no doubt that as the main thrust of the planned invasion was to be in the south, it would have been expedient to draw on the reserves in the north of the country to bolster the south. I really do believe that their fate would have been a foregone conclusion if the Luftwaffe had not changed their tactics.

Speak to you again soon.

Dave

[Erik E]

on the 15th August 1940

According to a book I have, Luftflotte 5 lost 21 planes (1/6 of their entire fleet) in this attack. This major loss caused the final desicion to never launch large scale attacks from Norway again.......

Erik

[David Brown]

Luftflotte 5 lost 21 planes (1/6 of their entire fleet) in this attack. This major loss caused the final desicion to never launch large scale attacks from Norway again.......

Erik

Hello Erik E

This is true but I would question the use of the word "final" for no other reason then it could be attempted again if there were no air defences of the type they met on the 15th August 1940.

Dave

[Yngwie J.]

Hello again!

I still have a few points to make :

- I believe that by the time the Luftwaffe changed their tactics and resorted to attacking London and other cities, the invasion plan was allready postponed.

- The Luftwaffe did not have enough resources left by the end of the Battle of Britain to attack RAF airfields with any effect ( not for much longer anyway ).

David Brown wrote :

Any Royal Air Force fighters in the north would have been moved to the south coast as the R.A.F. losses mounted, this would have opened the back door along the north east coast where they had previously been on the receiving end of a battering.

- Even if the RAF was forced to move their fighters from the North, I still can´t see how the Luftwaffe could have attacked from this side with any success.

Best regards,
Yngwie J.

[Lord Gort]

Although in the event it was the Luftwaffe's failure to achieve a breakthrough which foiled the invasion plans, it was not just the RAF which saved Britain. If there had been no British army, the Germans could have afforded for a much smaller invasion force than the 13 divisions envisaged in first 3 days. Above all it was the weakness of the German navy - weak in 1939, crippled after the Norweigian campaign, which made from the beggining the full scale invasion plan a non-starter. And the very need for air superiority, upon which the modified plan depended, arose from the dominance of the British Navy, the original Sea Lion plan had to be modified until it was a mere appendage of the air war. Just as Napoleon's invasion from Boulogne was made impossible by the battles of Aboukir, Cpoenhagen, and Trafalgar, so Sea Lion foundered, along with half of Germany's destroyers, in the actions at Narvik and Trondheim.



regards,

[Andy H]

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopi ... 368#190368

The above links into this statement below:

We recently found out (thanks to the collapse of the USSR) that the Soviets had plans to attack Germany as soon as Germany started "Operation Sealion"...the invasion of England

I've asked the poster if he can expand on this, as I was wondering if German Intel had got wind of this and that this may have effected the plans or was the final nail in it's coffin?

Andy

[David Brown]

Bloody hell! I'm getting a right good pasting here...Keep 'em coming

the Germans could have afforded for a much smaller invasion force than the 13 divisions envisaged in first 3 days.

Hello Lord Gort

These 13 divisions WERE the smaller invasion force. The original invasion plan involved 40 divisions spread out all along the South coast, this was the one Jodl wanted to go for, but it was Grand Admiral Raedar who prevailed and the whole invasion plan was scaled down to attack one point between Beachy Head and Dover. This was the only landing attempt that Raedar believed he had the means in the Kreigsmarine to defend.


Hello Yngwie J.

I believe that by the time the Luftwaffe changed their tactics and resorted to attacking London and other cities, the invasion plan was allready postponed.

The Luftwaffe changed their tactics on the 7th September 1940. Fighter command was expecting the incoming Luftwaffe to split up and attack various airfields and radar installations, but they didn't they stayed together and by the time they were over London it was too late for the Royal Air Force to muster any reasonable defence. By the time they appeared on the scene most of the bombers were on their way back to France.

Although Hitler did order the German economy to direct its efforts towards supporting the invasion of Russia on the 27th September 1940, it wasn't until the 9th January 1941 that Hitler gave the order to discontinue the preparations for invasion,

The Luftwaffe did not have enough resources left by the end of the Battle of Britain to attack RAF airfields with any effect ( not for much longer anyway ).

Agreed. To be honest they never recovered from the mauling they took on the 15th September 1940 when they lost 125 bombers and a further 53 fighters to just 25 R.A.F. planes. After this date the Germans losses were heavier then the British. I believe it was the South African R.A.F. Fighter Ace "Sailor" Mallan who said

"It is better not to shoot a German bomber down, but to send it limping back home with its tail gunner gunner dead and the rest of the crew choking to death on the smoke and fumes...it has a better effect on their moral"

Or words too that effect.

Even if the RAF was forced to move their fighters from the North, I still can´t see how the Luftwaffe could have attacked from this side with any success.

If the scenario I painted of fighters being moved south to help repell the main thrust of the invasion came to fruition, then it would be feasable for the Luftwaffe to launch a second attempt from Luftflotte 5, which had gone disasterously wrong for them on the only occassion they tried. With no R.A.F. fighters to defend the area, the British airfields in the north would have been open to being seized, the Royal Navy bases such as Scapa Flow would have been fair game for attack on the way in and I really believe that it would not have taken much in the way of an airborne assault by the Luftwaffe Paratroops to secure the airfields and give an open door for the Germans to come through the back door.


Hello Sam H

Well put.

Keep Smilin' all and keep 'em coming...speak to you all again soon.

Dave

[David Brown]

Hello Andy H

You slipped your post in as I was writing mine up.

That is really interesting...really, really, interesting. It's definately another topic for speculation isn't it.

Dave

[Andy H]

Fighter Command OoB Dated August 1940

No 10 Group (SW England & South Wales)
4 Spitfire Sqns
3 Hurricane Sqns
1 Blenheim Sqn
1 Gladiator flight

No 11 Group (SE England)
2 Blenmeim Sqns
13 Hurricane Sqns
6 Spitfire Sqns

No 12 Group (Central England & Mid/North Wales0
2 Blenheim Sqns
1 Defiant Sqn
5 Hurricane Sqns
6 Spitfire Sqns

No 13 Group (Northern England & Scotland)
1 Blenheim Sqn
1 Defiant Sqn
9 Hurricane Sqns
2 Spitfire Sqns

The above doesn't include some 100 Hurricanes & Spitfires serving in OTU Sqn's, though they were Battle worn machines.

Andy

[Yngwie J.]

Hi Dave!

Although Hitler did order the German economy to direct its efforts towards supporting the invasion of Russia on the 27th September 1940, it wasn't until the 9th January 1941 that Hitler gave the order to discontinue the preparations for invasion,

I´m sure you´re right about when the invasion plans were discontinued. My opinion however is that they were postponed at an earlier date.

If the scenario I painted of fighters being moved south to help repell the main thrust of the invasion came to fruition, then it would be feasable for the Luftwaffe to launch a second attempt from Luftflotte 5, which had gone disasterously wrong for them on the only occassion they tried. With no R.A.F. fighters to defend the area, the British airfields in the north would have been open to being seized, the Royal Navy bases such as Scapa Flow would have been fair game for attack on the way in and I really believe that it would not have taken much in the way of an airborne assault by the Luftwaffe Paratroops to secure the airfields and give an open door for the Germans to come through the back door.

Such an attack would exclude the use of the Bf109, leaving escort duties to the Bf110.
On 9 April 1940, 3 (Three!!) Gladiators from the Norwegian Army Air Force met a force of about 60 aircraft. Ju52´s and He111´s i believe, escorted by Bf110´s. The agility of the Gladiator totally outclassed the Bf110, and they managed to shoot down four aircraft without any losses.
Imagine what a sqadron of Spitfires could have achieved!
Anyway, my point being that a relatively small force, or even the use of the obsolete Gladiator, would be sufficient to repell any German attack.



Yngwie J.

[Lord Gort]

Oh dear David. My information is quite precise I can assure you, the invasion plan as set was for 13 divisions in the first 3 days, I can also tell you where, from what army groups they came etc. But I doubt they could have transported that many anyway.

[David Brown]

Such an attack would exclude the use of the Bf109, leaving escort duties to the Bf110.
On 9 April 1940, 3 (Three!!) Gladiators from the Norwegian Army Air Force met a force of about 60 aircraft. Ju52´s and He111´s i believe, escorted by Bf110´s. The agility of the Gladiator totally outclassed the Bf110, and they managed to shoot down four aircraft without any losses.
Imagine what a sqadron of Spitfires could have achieved!
Anyway, my point being that a relatively small force, or even the use of the obsolete Gladiator, would be sufficient to repell any German attack.

Hello Yngwie J.

I totally agree with what you are saying. My point is though that there would be NO aerial defence to speak of in the north because they would have been ordered south, as the last throw of the dice, to repel the incoming Luftwaffe.

Andy H pointed out earlier in this thread that it was not aircraft production that was proving problematic, it was the fact that we were not able to train pilots quickly enough. So even if there were any fighters left in the north there would in all probability be no one to fly them.

My information is quite precise I can assure you, the invasion plan as set was for 13 divisions in the first 3 days, I can also tell you where, from what army groups they came etc. But I doubt they could have transported that many anyway.

Hello Lord Gort

I think we've got our wires crossed somewhere. Your figures are spot on.

What I meant was that Jodl originally wanted 40 divisions involved when the planning for the invasion was still in its infancy. When the plan eventually became Fuhrer Directive 16, it was 13 divisions as you say.

Your last sentence is where my argument comes to grief.

Speak to you all again soon.

Dave

[Andy H]

Andy H pointed out earlier in this thread that it was not aircraft production that was proving problematic, it was the fact that we were not able to train pilots quickly enough. So even if there were any fighters left in the north there would in all probability be no one to fly them

Hi David

What I failed to mention that what the RAF had started to implement was for pilots from Lysander and Blenhiem Sqns to do a 2week crash course in Fighter tactics as a short measure, to cover the gap between the fully trained fighter pilots coming through.

Andy

[Hoth]

As I see from reading this forum, the opinions are quite polarized, a lot of people thinking Britain would have been defeated in June 1940, and others thinking Germany would be unable to pull off a successful invasion.

I think Germany could have pulled off a successful invasion, but not in June 1940. Firstly, Britain had not been completely subdued. We lost a lot of equiptment at Dunkirk, but the sheer numbers of men willing to fight would have stopped the Germans getting any bridgeheads. The Luftwaffe, as good as they were, did not knock out all the radar stations, and they did not destroy the RAF. Also the RN could and would have stopped any attempt for the Germans crossing at least 22 miles of Channel in river barges.

If instead of invading Russia next year however, I think Hitler could have pulled off a successful invasion, granted a few things happened differently in 1940. Firstly, Hitler shouldn't have stopped the Panzer drive on Dunkirk. His thoughts were that if he was nicer to the British, and let there troops get out of Dunkirk, they would sign fair ceasefire terms, but if he slaughtered the troops leaving Dunkirk, they would fight to the bitter end. This was his reasoning in halting the Panzer drive. If it had continued, and many prisoners were taken the war may have turned in Germany's favour. There would be no way for Britain to defend itself through lack of trained men and equiptment. Either an invasion or U-boat blockade would have brought Britain to her knees. Systematic heavy bombing of airfields, radar, and the RN all through 1940 and early 1941 would have softened them enough for the Germans to open a sea lane in the Channel and get across. Once on land, the Germans would have been unstoppable. With Britain eliminated, practically 100% of the German Army could have advanced into Russia, and it would probably have done it.

I heard someone saying something about Soviet plans to invade Germany as soon as they invaded Britain. I don't believe in 1940 or early 1941 the situation in Russia would enable them to attack a country successfully mainly thanks to the officer purges and the complete lack of new military thinking. The only generals in the USSR at the only got where they were because of loyalty to Stalin, not excellent tactics. Look at Finland, the Russian hardly got anywhere there, and they had planned to attack Germany. A Russian attack on Germany in 1940 or 1941 would be suicide. In fact, worse than suicide.

Any way, thats my thoughts on the matter. A completely objective British view of things.

Dan

[David Brown]

Hello Hoth - Welcome to the Forum

As you can see, I've been taking a right good pasting on this subject, but that for me is what being a part of this Forum is all about - really good arguments and debates...so let us begin.

Germany could have pulled off a successful invasion, but not in June 1940.

It had to be then or never. Had the Germans left it, they would have lost the advantage of the British Army's lack of equipment, which we both agree was left on Dunkirk Beach.

Dave